AMD's Revolutionary Mantle Graphics API Adopted by Industry Leading Game Developers Cloud Imperium,

[Rusty0611]

Also again they sell less discrete GPUs which is what really makes up the PC gaming market. Why are you factoring GPUs in machines which aren't going to used for gaming? Which your figures includes.

The guy is saying GAME developers won't throw their weight behind Mantle if Nvidia are massively outselling AMD cards..... game developers. Game developers only care about gpu's being sold for gaming. GPU's being sold to run youtube has precisely no bearing or influence on game developers at all. 100million console APU's whose primary purpose is gaming will lead game devs massively, 100million GT630's being used to watch youtube(and porn) doesn't sway a game developer in the slightest.

This is ignoring that AMD are outselling Nvidia in gpu's(before consoles get factored in) at a rate of 11:8 or, around 3:2. If his entire argument is they won't adopt something because Nvidia outsells them, that Nvidia doesn't actually outsell them is pretty damn relevant, that AMD outsell Nvidia by an even larger factor when you consider GPU's used primarily for gaming... the argument holds even less weight.

Yes but consoles don't have Mantle capable set up's inside them. There's somebody who was quoted saying that Mantle isn't available on the Xbox One so assume it isn't for the PS4 as well. So what difference does it make?

Being overly verbose doesn't make you automatically right.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Nerd mode on.

Source
http://www.techpowerup.com/193532/a...t-of-global-gpu-market-share-in-6-months.html

 

[humbug]

Discrete GPU's only ^^^ a small part of the market, and most of them are GTX 630/40's, overall AMD out sell Nvidia by about 50%

Also again they sell less discrete GPUs which is what really makes up the PC gaming market. Why are you factoring GPUs in machines which aren't going to used for gaming? Which your figures includes.



Yes but consoles don't have Mantle capable set up's inside them. There's somebody who was quoted saying that Mantle isn't available on the Xbox One so assume it isn't for the PS4 as well. So what difference does it make?

Being overly verbose doesn't make you automatically right.

Mantle is based on Game Console API's, the amount of times AMD and DICE have likened Mantle API to that of Game Consoles and explained the benefits of that to developers is becoming repetitive, its amassing that for some people that still hasn't sunk in.

Game Consoles don't have Mantle because Mantle is what Game Console API's are: for the Desktop ecte...

 

[Rusty0611]

Mantle is based on Game Console API's, the amount of times AMD and DICE have likened Mantle API to that of Game consoles and explained the benefits of that to developers is becoming repetitive, its amassing that for some people that still hasn't sunk in.

Game Consoles don't have Mantle because Mantle is what Game Console API's are: for the Desktop ecte...

They're not the same thing though.

We've already established you don't know what you're talking about with regards to Mantle by saying it and DX working simultaneously (lol).

It may be a similar idea but it's not just a cut and paste job of the benefits of one to the other.

I don't really know what your point is. What is 'amassing'?

 

[humbug]

They're not the same thing though.

We've already established you don't know what you're talking about with regards to Mantle by saying it and DX working simultaneously (lol).

It may be a similar idea but it's not just a cut and paste job of the benefits of one to the other.

I don't really know what your point is. What is 'amassing'? :confusing:

Oh, i don't know what i'm talking about, skip back a few pages and see yourself eating humble pie when i told you Mantle would be available to everyone and you told me No!, and yet i was right.

You announce people don't know what they are talking about every-time you fail to win the argument.

Mantle does not have to be "the same thing" to give it ease of porting and development opportunities.

You may disagree, but if you do, don't disagree with me, disagree with DICE and AMD, tell them they don't know what they are talking about

 

[melmac]

Yes but consoles don't have Mantle capable set up's inside them. There's somebody who was quoted saying that Mantle isn't available on the Xbox One so assume it isn't for the PS4 as well. So what difference does it make?

I think everyone misunderstands this. Of course mantle isn't going to be in consoles, its an api designed for the PC. But, i think all three API's, PS4, XBone and mantle will be very similar. And i think its from working in the development of both consoles that AMD decided to push foward with mantle.

And if, as i suspect it is, that the api's are very similar, then this will mean games developed on a console will need very little work to port to a PC with mantle.

 

[Rusty0611]

Oh, i don't know what i'm talking about, skip back a few pages and see yourself eating humble pie when i told you Mantle would be available to everyone and you told me No!, and yet i was right.

Based on what they were saying prior to tonight it was proprietary in all but name. I wasn't eating humble pie at all. I made that call based on what they said. I already said a million times that I have no interest or care in it being proprietary but that I found the hypocrisy amusing. Nice try about trying to turn what I said into something you wished I'd said though . I'm still sceptical about what the actual implementation will end up like but my real interest is in what performance it offers over DX.

You announce people don't know what they are talking about every-time you fail to win the argument.

I look back a few pages and I see you misinterpreting a quote from AMD which doesn't show that Mantle and DX work together and then being told that by multiple people but focussing your retorts on me to try to detract from your incorrect information. So, no, you don't know what you're talking about.

Mantle does not have to be "the same thing" to give it ease of porting and development opportunities.

You may disagree, but if you do, don't disagree with me, disagree with DICE and AMD, tell them they don't know what they are talking about

Time will tell.

DICE also said that the game would also be at 1080/60 on consoles as well and that they'd never charge for DLC so you really have to take things with a pinch of salt. What I've found though is that if somebody in the industry says something you agree with then it's gospel whereas anything else gets the normal level of scepticism applied.

 

[Rusty0611]

I think everyone misunderstands this. Of course mantle isn't going to be in consoles, its an api designed for the PC. But, i think all three API's, PS4, XBone and mantle will be very similar. And i think its from working in the development of both consoles that AMD decided to push foward with mantle.

And if, as i suspect it is, that the api's are very similar, then this will mean games developed on a console will need very little work to port to a PC with mantle.

Well consoles are already coded to the metal which is why games such as GTA5 and The Last of Us look so good compared to the age old hardware being used. There's real tangible improvements to be made from a low level API but I dunno how similar it will be to the Mantle implementation for PCs and whether any benefit is to be had on that front... we'll see .

One thing that will improve things for AMD is developer input and driver optimisation at the very start of development as their GPUs are in both consoles.

That's just my opinion .

 

[drunkenmaster]

Also again they sell less discrete GPUs which is what really makes up the PC gaming market. Why are you factoring GPUs in machines which aren't going to used for gaming? Which your figures includes.

Yes but consoles don't have Mantle capable set up's inside them. There's somebody who was quoted saying that Mantle isn't available on the Xbox One so assume it isn't for the PS4 as well. So what difference does it make?

Being overly verbose doesn't make you automatically right.

Dear god, firstly stop trying to change someone elses argument. The guy said that the industry won't support Mantle or back AMD because Nvidia outsell AMD... that was it, nothing to do with Mantle support on consoles or anything else. He's saying the industry will not support a move to Mantle because Nvidia outsell AMD in gpu's 2:1.

AMD in fact outsell Nvidia roughly in a factor of 3:2, so his premise that they are outsold is incorrect.

Discrete gpu's does not equal gaming GPU's.

The vast majority of gpu's sold in the past decade are never, ever used for gaming, that is simply fact. Gt630, 7350, anything from the past decade of similarly low end, no one recommends them for gaming, no one wants them for gaming, no one buys them for gaming, even for Wow or whatever else.

Computers need video output, it's that simple, Nvidia's biggest selling gpu is not used for gaming in the vast majority of cases, this is undeniable fact, Nvidia wouldn't deny this. AMD's apu's will generally spank the living hell out of a gt630. They are MUCH more suitable for gaming, and people are more likely to buy a AMD APU for gaming, than an Intel chip + gt630. A larger majority of AMD gpu sales are suitable for gaming than Nvidia sales.

AMD significantly outsells Nvidia before consoles are factored in, and while Nvidia is still selling vast numbers of PS3's. PS3 sales will tank, PS4 sales will sky rocket, it will have a significant effect on market share.

Again, his argument is that due to market share(not number of chips mantle is available to be used on) that no one would back Mantle if Nvidia didn't support it. AMD outsell Nvidia in gpu's, this is fact, AMD sell a somewhat higher percentage of gaming capable gpu's than Nvidia do, further extending their "gaming" market share difference to Nvidia.

 

[tommybhoy]

They're not the same thing though.

We've already established you don't know what you're talking about with regards to Mantle by saying it and DX working simultaneously (lol).

Yes but consoles don't have Mantle capable set up's inside them. There's somebody who was quoted saying that Mantle isn't available on the Xbox One so assume it isn't for the PS4 as well. So what difference does it make?

Mantle isn't about being available to the consoles, Mantle is about making it easier to cross program to the PC from the consoles and boosting performance.


Johan specifically talking about programming between PS4 and PC-in regards to Mantle implementation on PC:

We can share concepts and methods and various types of high level optimizations between them

Based on what they were saying prior to tonight it was proprietary in all but name. I wasn't eating humble pie at all. I made that call based on what they said.

Despite AMD stating(in the same articles) that it wouldn't be proprietary, I think that hypocrisy is amusing.

Humbug's/DM's taking a lot of stick in the last few pages, despite giving out a lot of factual information(and not hearsay/conjecture/made up ****), it maybe wasn't 100%correct, but it was in the high 90's on the button.

 

[Rusty0611]

Dear god, firstly stop trying to change someone elses argument.

Errr.... no. The debate has moved on from this point now hence your confusion about what is being said.

I didn't read the rest, sorry, because I think you could have summarised it in about 1 paragraph and I lost the thread completely as a result of the wall of text.

 

[Gregster]

I claimed that Mantle would be proprietary and from what I have read here, I was wrong. Good on AMD for this but everything said by AMD prior, had stated that it would only be for GCN and they went so far as to include the 7 series GPU's and that was it.

I wait with an open mind to see if Nvidia adopt Mantle (no reason they wouldn't) and to see the benefits it brings in terms of performance.

If this is truly open, my respect for AMD has just gone up a notch.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Discrete GPU's only ^^^ a small part of the market, and most of them are GTX 630/40's, overall AMD out sell Nvidia by about 50%

Out of interest, do you have a link for that?

Also, as far as you being right a while back, It seem you were correct, but that was contrary to the information I had seen up to that point. Also remember though that you said Mantle was not enough by itself and required DirectX to work? Do we know if that's the case too?

 

[Rusty0611]

Mantle isn't about being available to the consoles, Mantle is about making it easier to cross program to the PC from the consoles and boosting performance.


Johan specifically talking about programming between PS4 and PC-in regards to Mantle implementation on PC:

http://filebeam.com/fb25bacec9d25fa023c9631ed4e61311.jpg[IMG]

Despite AMD stating(in the same articles) that it wouldn't be proprietary, I think that hypocrisy is amusing.:p

Humbug's/DM's taking a lot of stick in the last few pages, despite giving out a lot of factual information(and not hearsay/conjecture/made up ****), it maybe wasn't 100%correct, but it was in the high 90's on the button.

:)[/QUOTE]

They originally stated that it required a GCN GPU. That made it proprietary in all but name. They've now said something different. That's fair enough. We'll see when it's implemented.

I wasn't sure about the PS4 side of things (which you'll see further up) but I know that the optimisations weren't possible on the XO. Good to know they'll be able to cross use stuff on the PS4 though.

 

[teppic]

I've been saying all along that there's nothing about a low level API that need be architecture specific, and that there was no reason Mantle couldn't be implemented on other hardware -- and that AMD's comments previously may only be about their implementation, i.e. the software you download from AMD will only support Mantle on GCN. This is how it appears to be, AMD hasn't actually said anything any different officially.

 

[Rusty0611]

I've been saying all along that there's nothing about a low level API that need be architecture specific, and that there was no reason Mantle couldn't be implemented on other hardware -- and that AMD's comments previously may only be about their implementation, i.e. the software you download from AMD will only support Mantle on GCN. This is how it appears to be, AMD hasn't actually said anything any different officially.

Yeah you're probably right. It did seem a bit arbitrary to lock out non-GCN AMD GPUs though. What are we now... mid-November? Not long to wait for some proper info.

 

[humbug]

Based on what they were saying prior to tonight it was proprietary in all but name. I wasn't eating humble pie at all. I made that call based on what they said. I already said a million times that I have no interest or care in it being proprietary but that I found the hypocrisy amusing. Nice try about trying to turn what I said into something you wished I'd said though . I'm still sceptical about what the actual implementation will end up like but my real interest is in what performance it offers over DX.

What they said was "Mantle will be open" they reinforced that today by bluntly saying "later versions will be available to all GPU's"

first you said AMD wouldn't do this, and now they have put it in plain terms your the sceptic, well surprise surprise... do you still find that hypocritical and amusing?

I look back a few pages and I see you misinterpreting a quote from AMD which doesn't show that Mantle and DX work together and then being told that by multiple people but focussing your retorts on me to try to detract from your incorrect information. So, no, you don't know what you're talking about.

I Said to googlemonopoly that Mantle will not replace DX, instead it will compliment it, AMD have clearly stated that Mantle will not replace DX.

Again, Not because i have any sort of foresight, but because the information is already out there, despite this somehow you and other keep getting it wrong.

Time will tell.

DICE also said that the game would also be at 1080/60 on consoles as well and that they'd never charge for DLC so you really have to take things with a pinch of salt. What I've found though is that if somebody in the industry says something you agree with then it's gospel whereas anything else gets the normal level of scepticism applied.

Ah, there is that sceptic again. your brand of scepticism is far from normal.

Out of interest, do you have a link for that?

Also, as far as you being right a while back, It seem you were correct, but that was contrary to the information I had seen up to that point. Also remember though that you said Mantle was not enough by itself and required DirectX to work? Do we know if that's the case too?

AMD said themselves Mantle will not replace DX, they explained in APU365 that DX is still needed, thought to be honest i was a little surprised that the reason for that, it seems, is to keep compatibility for other hardware. not their own GPU's

http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/32237-amd-grabs-more-gpu-market-share

 

[Rusty0611]

I wait with an open mind to see if Nvidia adopt Mantle (no reason they wouldn't) and to see the benefits it brings in terms of performance.

Can't see that happening to be honest. nVidia would lose a lot of face implementing something with GAMING EVOLVED stuck all over it . It's why PhysX would never have really been a viable option for AMD either: you've got a feature from your main competitor as part of your package. By default that implies inferiority (even if not true).

I'd say nVidia will push something of their own over but depending on the hybrid between the PS4 low level API and Mantle they may have a fight on their hands to encourage developer take up. Especially if AMD have nipped a lot of them up into deals etc.

 

[Rusty0611]

What they said was "Mantle will be open" they reinforced that today by bluntly saying "later versions will be available to all GPU's"

first you said AMD wouldn't do this, and now they have put it in plain terms your the sceptic, well surprise surprise... do you still find that hypocritical and amusing?

Tangential. Originally they said GCN only. Now they're saying something different.

I didn't say they wouldn't do it, I said based on what they have said previously it looks to be proprietary in all but name. There's a big difference but nice try.

And it's 'you're'.

I Siad to googlemonopoly that Mantle will not replace DX, instead it will compliment it, AMD have clearly stated that Mantle will not replace DX.

Again, Not because i have any sort of foresight, but because the information is already out there, despite this somehow you and other keep getting it wrong.

No what you said was that Mantle still needed DX to work and games couldn't use Mantle exclusively.

Ah, there is that sceptic again. your brand of scepticism is far from normal.

Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy scepticism. Far better than eating turd fed by the GPU manufacturers. Don't confuse scepticism with conspiracy theorist .

Isn't all this she said/he said/I said/you said a bit boring?

Congratulations, you called it right and my interpretation of what AMD have themselves said was incorrect based on what they have themselves said now. One could accuse them of a 180 .

I'm joking - don't wall of text crit me just because it looks to be critical of AMD.

 

[tommybhoy]

I claimed that Mantle would be proprietary and from what I have read here, I was wrong. Good on AMD for this but everything said by AMD prior, had stated that it would only be for GCN and they went so far as to include the 7 series GPU's and that was it.

They originally stated that it required a GCN GPU. That made it proprietary in all but name. They've now said something different. That's fair enough. We'll see when it's implemented.

What they said was "Mantle will be open" they reinforced that today by bluntly saying "later versions will be available to all GPU's"

October 2013-Ritche Corpus, AMD’s director of software alliances and developer relations, in an interview with VR-Zone web-site:

The plan is, long term, once we have developed Mantle into a state where it’s stable and in a state where it can be shared openly [we will make it available]. The long term plan is to share and create the spec and SDK and make it widely available.