Should Gary Barlow return his OBE?

Because you use an ISA to prevent tax, not dodge or evade.

Probably wasn't the clearest example, but I would still dispute that as you are still using legal customs. But moving on from that as it isn't really applicable to the original post Castiel was responding to,

Can you avoid tax by lying to hmrc? Is that then ok?

The original poster Castiel was responding to was insinuating Barlow was doing something bad. Castiel implied you if you are doing something bad you aren't avoiding tax. Avoiding tax is actually fine, evading is bad.
 
Probably wasn't the clearest example, but I would still dispute that as you are still using legal customs. But moving on from that as it isn't really applicable to the original post Castiel was responding to,

Can you avoid tax by lying to hmrc? Is that then ok?

The original poster Castiel was responding to was insinuating Barlow was doing something bad. Castiel implied you if you are doing something bad you aren't avoiding tax. Avoiding tax is actually fine, evading is bad.

Legally avoid tax by lying? No you can't.
 
I would personally.

As a Christian, I believe in doing what is morally right.

As they say, money is the root of all evil...

That's pretty sanctimonious.

So I suppose you survive on the very basics and give everything else away to those less fortunate, to not do would be a bit hypocritical?... Didn't think so.
 
Stop introducing legal definitions. I thought we are talking about the meaning of words themselves.

Can you avoid tax by lying about how much you actually earn?

No, you can't ignore the separation of the two because you want to be lazy with words.
 
That's pretty sanctimonious.

So I suppose you survive on the very basics and give everything else away to those less fortunate, to not do would be a bit hypocritical?... Didn't think so.

So you either do everything to aggressively avoid tax or give every excess away to the less fortunate?

Yes the world is that black and white.

Do you think it is okay (regardless of law) for someone earning a million to pay less tax in an absolute amount than someone earning £40k?

If, no is that a sanctimonious attitiude?

No, you can't ignore the separation of the two because you want to be lazy with words.

Maybe everyone isn't using legal definitions when they speak. Words have meanings beyond that.

If I said, "I avoided tax by lying to HMRC" I bet no one would be confused by what I had said.
 
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Maybe everyone isn't using legal definitions when they speak. Words have meanings beyond that.

If I said, "I avoided tax by lying to HMRC" I bet no one would be confused by what I had said.

Then in your world, if I said I avoid tax what would you think I mean?
 
In my world -

I avoid tax.
I evade tax.

Tells me vastly more. Which is why laziness with terminology is a negative thing.

There is no absolute definition outside of a legal environment where things are made absolute to remove ambiguity inherent in words.
 

You might want to look at the context in which the discussion is taking place, and the arguments put forward...the legally defined context is important as at no point has anyone been referring to Tax Evasion...the thread is about Tax Avoidance particularly concerning Gary Barlow and others, which is defined differently than Tax Evasion, both contextually and legally.

What Kitch9 stated was:

The tax system is geared so the self employed pays tax on their net earnings. Claiming a legitimate expense allowed under law is not tax avoidance.

He specifically stated that claiming a legitimate expensive is not tax avoidance...I pointed out that mitigating your tax liability legally is legitimate, therefore if we assume your correct as regard the context of his use of the term 'tax avoidance' then any legitimate (as in legal) accounting of an individuals tax liability is also legitimate. In the general use of the word 'avoid' then both the use in the sentence: Peter 'avoids' paying tax by claiming legitimate expenditure, and: Paul avoids paying tax by hiding his assets. Is the same, the latter is not Tax Avoidance, but the use of the word 'avoid' is correct in both..however the term 'Avoid' is not the same, nor does it have the same definition as Tax Avoidance'.

However, the actual part that is important in his paragraph is the use of the word 'legitimate', which I replied to in context and within the parameters of his stated position.

Aside from that, I would not use Merriam-Webster as the definitive guide on defining the contextual usage of synonyms.

To clarify

TAX AVOIDANCE: the arrangement of one’s financial affairs to minimize tax liability within the law.

TAX EVASION: The illegal non-payment or underpayment of tax.

LEGITIMATE: conforming to the law or to rules.

As defined by the Oxford English Dictionary.
 
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There is no absolute definition outside of a legal environment where things are made absolute to remove ambiguity inherent in words.

So instead you choose to introduce ambiguity by ignoring their definition in the contexts of the thread?
 
No, you can't ignore the separation of the two because you want to be lazy with words.

The chap I replied to used the term 'Tax Avoidance' it has a specific definition, both legally and in common usage...Muon is attempting to extricate himself through a semantic argument...which is pointless, because in either case my answer is valid as it was based on the concept of legitimacy in the legal context, as that was the way in which it was applied by kitch9.
 
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How can you be avoiding a tax that legally you should not pay?

Charity avoidance or maybe simple intelligence is a more apt description.
 
So I suppose you survive on the very basics and give everything else away to those less fortunate, to not do would be a bit hypocritical?... Didn't think so.
I'm sorry but this has to be one of the most logically flawed & terrible arguments I've ever heard.

If person A has an ideological stance which is based around the desire to ensure everybody had X standard of living, then person A is included under the umbrella of 'everybody' & simply wishing others to be at that level isn't hypocritical.

I'm in a pretty comfortable situation myself & wish those less fortunate to also enjoy the same standard of living, in no part does this equate to wanting anybody to live with nothing or just the bare essentials (that includes myself).

How can you be avoiding a tax that legally you should not pay?

Charity avoidance or maybe simple intelligence is a more apt description.
The term avoidance is apt due to the individual having to take measures to achieve the goal, you don't tend to passively avoid tax - it's a verb for a reason & tax is the thing being avoided (as they would have to pay it, had they not avoided it).
 
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Tax avoidance is not illegal..it is accounting. It is the Governments responsibility to ensure the robustness of the tax system.

Pretty much every self employed individual (and quite a few PAYE) avoids taxation to some degree, whether it is claiming for the extra PC or doing some cash in hand or bringing in tobacco and alcohol from abroad....I suspect that Gary Barlow has raised and/or donated significantly more than the OP to charities of varying descriptions so perhaps we should simply recognise what he has done rather than vilify for what he has not.

You mention in your opening post methods of avoidance Castiel, this is not avoidance, it is evasion.
 
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