Soldato
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Honda marries vtec with forced induction - finally!
- Thread starter -Mike-
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Soldato
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Im sick of all the hondas boys crying at this.
Honda can't make another K20-esque car.
Mr. Euro emissions, greenpeace, PETA and your mum say so.
I for one accept the turbo vtec and look forward to it's eventual release.
And the inevitable Mugen versions :NODDINGHEADSMILEY:
Honda can't make another K20-esque car.
Mr. Euro emissions, greenpeace, PETA and your mum say so.
I for one accept the turbo vtec and look forward to it's eventual release.
And the inevitable Mugen versions :NODDINGHEADSMILEY:
Soldato
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Im sick of the counter arguments aswell
Nothing stops a turbo engine revving properly. Mugen versions double the price for not much gains from what I can see or there is a notional model that has extra plastic.
Yeah 7.5 years on the S2000 :S
Whats the point in VTEC if if only revs to 7k rpm.
Loads of cars have iVTEC/VTEC systems now anyway so its hardly going to be any different to anything else. All these downsize boosted engines have limited top ends which don't suit enthuastic driving IMO.
The Porsche GT3 has a Normal Aspirated 3.8 making 425PS (125bhp per-litre) whilst revving to 9k. It wouldn't be impossible for Honda to pull it off but it would then come with poor emissions which would scare off middle road buyers, £260~ for the Megane/ST/VXR
I don't think many people have actually experienced a full on hard revving normally aspirated engine outside of the Honda VTEC brigade. There are so few good ones out there, such as the S54 in the CSL/M3 and of course the GT3 but it's hard for people who've only experienced big lumps or turbo power to understand their appeal. There is something very nice about a razor sharp throttle response and the noise associated with high revs that makes the experience more fun. To really make it work it needs to be mated to a really good gear change as you have to stir the box to get the most from them, just adds involvement which modern cars are losing with each passing week, sadly. 
I don't think many people have actually experienced a full on hard revving normally aspirated engine outside of the Honda VTEC brigade. There are so few good ones out there, such as the S54 in the CSL/M3 and of course the GT3 but it's hard for people who've only experienced big lumps or turbo power to understand their appeal. There is something very nice about a razor sharp throttle response and the noise associated with high revs that makes the experience more fun. To really make it work it needs to be mated to a really good gear change as you have to stir the box to get the most from them, just adds involvement which modern cars are losing with each passing week, sadly.
Completely agree
I don't think many people have actually experienced a full on hard revving normally aspirated engine outside of the Honda VTEC brigade. There are so few good ones out there, such as the S54 in the CSL/M3 and of course the GT3 but it's hard for people who've only experienced big lumps or turbo power to understand their appeal. There is something very nice about a razor sharp throttle response and the noise associated with high revs that makes the experience more fun. To really make it work it needs to be mated to a really good gear change as you have to stir the box to get the most from them, just adds involvement which modern cars are losing with each passing week, sadly.
Spot on
Still remember my first ever vtec experience in buying a b16 equipped ef civic
That feeling of Christ it's still revving and my Honda loving mate scolding me for backing off at 7k rpm
Loopy was not the word coming from a variety of hot fiestas and valves Novas
Really need another dose of cheap vtec fun in my life
Soldato
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Im sick of the counter arguments aswell
Mugen versions double the price for not much gains from what I can see or there is a notional model that has extra plastic.
The counter argument is waht is happening though! Yeah but Mugen stuff does look good, not biased at all.
Completely different to a mainstream hot hatch. GT3 is nigh on supercar level.
I don't understand how some manufacturers manage it and some don't.
e.g. honda cant make a 2.0L n/a type R anymore but Lambo can make n/a V12's
Alos saying a car cannot be driven enthusiastically without a higher than normal rev range? Erm.
Soldato
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Soldato
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The reason for something happening and then simply declaring that its the case is not a counter argument.
'Why are Honda going turbo'
''cos everyone is and emissions and stuff' is not a counter argument.
The revs is the VTEC appeal and the revs lead to having plenty of gearing to max the wheel grunt and give you a wider envelope to use for mid corner balance etc etc.
Lambo can has they have the benefit that the car costs 10x more and hence the emissions compliance technologies and aftertreatment can easily be buried into the material cost of the car. Honda don't have that luxury.
You can fix most things with money, only some brands have the ability to do that and still offer a profitable product. SULEV160 and LEV3 in the states is just as taxing as EU6 yet you get Civic Si with the K24 over there.
Lambo make very few cars and their fleet CO2 average is wrapped up in VAG. Honda don't have this brand laddering to allow such things. High Revs = short gears which simply do not give good CO2 numbers versus a turbo engine with gearing developed for an emissions cycle
Ragging a engine to the redline is pretty pointless in most other car in this catagory. All these downsized turbos are developed to make peak torque at much lower revs and the turbo is matched accordingly. Because of this they are athesmatic at higher revs and feel like they can't breathe when you are pressing on. Honda geniunely had something unique with the 8k+ rpm VTEC engines
Sure every car can be driven enthuatiscally, but not many feel as right as a good NA engine, with razor throttle response, that makes power all the way to the redline, and more importantly - feels like it should be there.
The S2000 engines 125hp litre NA is 15years old and still un-beaten even by Ferrari or Porsche. A special engine!
Get back to your batteries
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I think the thing I remember best was hearing my GT3 on the rolling road at Thorneys back in the day of BM3W/MTorque. There was me and 2 others in GT3's and hearing those on the rollers hitting 8200rpm and the sheer wail that came from the engine was epic. I know how good it sounded inside over 5K, how sharp the throttle was and how, once you became familiar with it you could use it to steer the car, but the high pitched sound you get from a GT3 over 5,500rpm is what makes it stand out from normal 911's. Can't imagine what 9000rpm on the new one sounds like on the rollers!
Soldato
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I gathered as much, money is what Honda dont have (or at leaast as much) to throw at a Type R as they should to create what would be deemed a "proper" Type R then.
So the new Type R is going to be as good as the tools they have to work with, which I have no doubt they will do a good job regardless!
But yeah, you helped me understand why certain marques can do it and some can't
Same as above really, you don't need to tell me what driving a sharp N/A car is like though mate! I do very much understand.
Just saw your edit, shhhh. The new NSX is electric too, so yeahhhhhhh
Its not about money the company has, but how much of the emissions technology the OEM can pass onto the consumer.
For current Co2 targets one of the cheapest (and lowest impact to the cost of the vehicle) is the downsize boosted formula (Turbo, DI). Without doing this the OEM could go out of business once the 2015 target CO2 averages come into place. 130g/km is the fleet average target with a €95 fine for each g over this per vehicle.
Even the Aventador V12 doesnt match the NA response of the S2000.
For current Co2 targets one of the cheapest (and lowest impact to the cost of the vehicle) is the downsize boosted formula (Turbo, DI). Without doing this the OEM could go out of business once the 2015 target CO2 averages come into place. 130g/km is the fleet average target with a €95 fine for each g over this per vehicle.
Even the Aventador V12 doesnt match the NA response of the S2000.
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I believe the 458 Speciale and Porsche 918 have beaten it.
The true definition of a good NA is as follows.
You rev the engine to 8K and release then do it again and again...
1) If it goes Whaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmrrrrrrrrr Whaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmrrrrrrrrr Whaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmrrrrrrrrr Whaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmrrrrrrrrr it's a **** one
2) If it goes Whm whm whm whm it's a good one
Housey
Scientitian
You rev the engine to 8K and release then do it again and again...
1) If it goes Whaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmrrrrrrrrr Whaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmrrrrrrrrr Whaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmrrrrrrrrr Whaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmrrrrrrrrr it's a **** one
2) If it goes Whm whm whm whm it's a good one
Housey
Scientitian