Squadron 42 - Star Citizen : Wing Commander Style Space Sim

[GiraffePencils]

how will you guys feel if he sells the company to microsoft or someone for hundreds of millions after delivering the game?

If I have my game, which I paid a price I felt was reasonable, I wouldn't care.

I didn't kickstart a studio, I gave someone money to make a game I wanted to play. If my game comes, and lives up to what it said. He could burn the studio to the ground for all I care.

I gave the amount of money I would give to any company for a game of that caliber. I didn't get thousands to invest in a studio.

It boils down to pay for a game, get the game.

 

[arknor]

btw with "star citizen con crap" I obviously mean how they are doing there own comic con style event(s) now that the game is a con.

I just don't see how devs taking no risks of their own and using other peoples money is really going to lead to the right decisions there is no real come back for them if it ends up being a turd and no one to answer to.
he could just release a turd claim the money is gone and run back off to hollywood making movies as it's not his own money on the line and he has nothing to lose, he disappeared from gaming for close to 20 years I'm sure he wouldn't mind doing it again

 

[GiraffePencils]

btw with "star citizen con crap" I obviously mean how they are doing there own comic con style event(s) now that the game is a con.
....
he could just release a turd claim the money is gone and run back off to hollywood making movies

Yeah I got that.
He could, and it would suck, HARD, but that's the risk.

You just have to look at the pitch, see if you think it's a reasonable goal for the money, and take the gamble

 

[Devlish]

The beauty of it is that the Devs CAN actually make all the calls, and too often in the past it has been the publisher / financiers who have stuffed a perfectly good game half way through the dev process because theyve judged its that moment where they can get a lot of cash/game mostly finished. Now here is an opportunity for the Devs to have the final say and release their completed vision.

Somehow I cant see the guy throwing away his reputation and place in history just to add more cash to his already huge cash pile. But thats just me - and the other backers of course ><

 

[ttaskmaster]

the money should be spent on the game and nothing else

Actually, that IS how it works, especially for small businesses.
Kickstarter was supposed to raise 2mil. People pledged FAR more than anticipated, several times more in fact, so the project had to be ramped up.
The initial investors were no longer needed, as the crowd were funding everything. In order to develop everything and add all the bits the crowd wanted, the studio needed to expand, hire new talent, get better kit, etc.

I get a lot of things custom-made, from clothes to motorcycle parts, to props and beyond. If the guy or gal I've hired to do the job can do it but needs a certain tool or new bit of machinery, that cost gets added to my bill.
The exact same is happening here.
Hell, even my gardener (yes, I have Staff) will charge me more if he has to use his own equipment rather than my lawnmower or whatever. Wear & tear, running costs, whatever. I've done the same back when I was running a business.

But back to the original point - The people paid loads more than expected. The people created this. The people made it this big. But this time there are no penny-pinching investors holding the purse strings like nooses and demanding how they think a game should be become law.

btw with "star citizen con crap" I obviously mean how they are doing there own comic con style event(s) now that the game is a con. /QUOTE]
The first CitizenCon was supposed to be a general meeting of departments and staff, to review the progress so far. They videoed it so they could show off the progress to the fans as well, but so many fans shouted that they wished they'd been there, that CIG have now made it a fan event too.
People wanted this.

I wonder who funded the 30 million wing commander movie he made,

You really wanna know?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0131646/companycredits?ref_=tt_dt_co

Production companies foot the initial bills, distributors (often studios) pay huge sums for the rights (as early as initial draft script stage) and the majority of funding comes from those studios.

he also jumped to making hollywood movies out of nowhere which makes me wonder if he was paying for the privilege of following his dream using the money microsoft gave him for digital anvil

DA were involved with Wing Commander anyway.
But what about half the directors out there (the guy that did D&D), some of whome are students fresh out of film school - Do they all pay millions for following their dream?
Truth is, CR had already done a lot of film work in the form of those live-action cutscenes in the games. He took that experience and used it.

 

[Imy]

They've obviously got more than enough money to make the game now so I wonder why people are still pledging $110+ for a $30 game and have pledged thus far an average of $92 with possibly millions more yet to be pledged? A pledge does not even equal a pre-order as nothing is guranteed (although I don't personally think there will be a problem).

Plus all those who have pledged, then gone back and doubled or trippled their pledge to get a better ship of unknown value in the game - why? Is a virtual good in a $30 game really worth $80 or more of real money? They're not even offering free DLCs (at least not that I've seen) to early pledgers. As they've got plenty money so far to build a really decent game, I don't buy the whole "I'm doing it to support them" excuse - they're not a charity.

It keeps coming back to these virtual ships they're trying to flog with some great advertising.

 

[Zenduri]

They've obviously got more than enough money to make the game now so I wonder why people are still pledging $110+ for a $30 game and have pledged thus far an average of $92 with possibly millions more yet to be pledged? A pledge does not even equal a pre-order as nothing is guranteed (although I don't personally think there will be a problem).

Plus all those who have pledged, then gone back and doubled or trippled their pledge to get a better ship of unknown value in the game - why? Is a virtual good in a $30 game really worth $80 or more of real money? They're not even offering free DLCs (at least not that I've seen) to early pledgers. As they've got plenty money so far to build a really decent game, I don't buy the whole "I'm doing it to support them" excuse - they're not a charity.

It keeps coming back to these virtual ships they're trying to flog with some great advertising.

Neglect a Genre for long enough and when something comes along people sling money at it?

For the original funding campaign one of the goals was a free SP "mission disc" for squadron 42. I think the point is they aren't trying to build a decent game, they're trying to build the best game they can.

 

[arknor]

you know what would be the best way for crowd funding games if the full source code was made available once the devs have stopped supporting the game so the community can carry on evolving the game as they see fit.

never going to happen though but it would be fair imo as we paid for it

I hope they keep their word on letting people have their own servers

 

[Zenduri]

Given they are allowing the player base to run and mod it's own servers surely this is already catered for?

Since you ninja edited ill do the same They are adamant they are giving folks the option to mod and run their own servers, this is one of the key things about the project.

 

[arknor]

Given they are allowing the player base to run and mod it's own servers surely this is already catered for?

no that's not the same as releasing all the code in an open source style way

modders can only do so much usually just altering what is already there depending on what dev tools are released as they don't have access to the code to add to it and rebuild the binaries
did CR ever say they would release dev tools?


also when they say people running their own servers I hope they don't mean as in renting them from us with limited access to modify stuff which most companies seem to be doing now.

 

[Zenduri]

YES.

Full Dev tool kit for it

 

[arknor]

YES.

Full Dev tool kit for it

okay that's one massive plus and makes modding massively easy although I still reckon crowd funded games should release the source code at some point

 

[Raumarik]

They've obviously got more than enough money to make the game now so I wonder why people are still pledging $110+ for a $30 game and have pledged thus far an average of $92 with possibly millions more yet to be pledged? A pledge does not even equal a pre-order as nothing is guranteed (although I don't personally think there will be a problem).

Plus all those who have pledged, then gone back and doubled or trippled their pledge to get a better ship of unknown value in the game - why? Is a virtual good in a $30 game really worth $80 or more of real money? They're not even offering free DLCs (at least not that I've seen) to early pledgers. As they've got plenty money so far to build a really decent game, I don't buy the whole "I'm doing it to support them" excuse - they're not a charity.

It keeps coming back to these virtual ships they're trying to flog with some great advertising.

Entirely depends on your outlook and how much you value your time. For example I'd rather pay £80 for a ship than spend 40 hours grinding to get it, now we've no idea how long or how entertaining or boring obtaining a ship will be so that debate can't really happen until after release.

I've made a pledge and left it at that, not raised it a single penny but I know several people who have spent over $2000 so far and intend to spend more, I honestly think they're mad, but each to their own. I can't condemn someones spending of their own money, it's a balancing act, some people want all the goodies the instant the game launches, others prefer to work for them as it'd be a bit of an empty game if one of the key objectives (i.e. get that fancy ship you dream of) was completed before you started playing.

Just because you don't agree with how people justify it to themselves doesn't mean you or they are correct, I pledged as I see this as the best hope for a decent game in this genre and I'm hoping my pledge helps it get made but it's equally important to me that they have a sustainable business model post-release, so I'm not fussed if I then have the option of buying DLC etc, I'd be shocked if there wasn't add on packs etc like we now have with Lord of the Rings Online and many other MMOs.

There's no point releasing the game then stopping development, it has to continue and some of the money already pledged will go towards this, as will funds raised after release from DLC and the shop.

 

[arknor]

well if mining wins the vote we could go some group mining if we ever have an ocuk clan to get ships.

I'm tempted to add a freelancer to my pledge but I won't go higher than that

 

[GiraffePencils]

Releasing source code is nice, but intellectual property is a valuable thing.
Once you've put it out there it's gone and a lot of programmers will have worked hard on this game.
If the source is out there then all parts of it could be reused for untold other projects, and it's really hard to prove they did in a lot of cases

 

[arknor]

Releasing source code is nice, but intellectual property is a valuable thing.
Once you've put it out there it's gone and a lot of programmers will have worked hard on this game.
If the source is out there then all parts of it could be reused for untold other projects, and it's really hard to prove they did in a lot of cases

well usually they are released only for non commercial use and i doubt it's that hard proving it as many companies have had successful infringement cases etc.
the programmers might have worked hard but it cost them nothing and they earned a living doing something they enjoy.
it should belong to the people who paid for it not the people who made it.

I'm not saying release source code immediately but at some point with crowd funding games I reckon its the moral thing to do especially when the budget is as massive as this is.

even if not all of it they could release enough so people can keep the game alive and modern, not encrypting the files so people can't alter them even would be a massive step.

most studios like the EA ones encrypt the files or using inhouse tools so people have no way of extracting the libraries and editing them (probably the biggest reason the modding community is so small these days and very few total conversion mods unlike back in the 90s and early 00's

 

[Devlish]

They've obviously got more than enough money to make the game now

Calling $30 million a lot for such an ambitious MMO is naieve. SWTOR cost somewhere between $150 -200 million and that was a pile of ****.

 

[ttaskmaster]

They've obviously got more than enough money to make the game now

Yep. The game. That is it.
If you want the actual Multiplayer, if you want the servers to work, if you want the Devs to support this, if you want any DLC, if you want anything more than just the basic features and if you ever want more than just 300,000 people (at most) playing this game, then it will cost.
Advertising, merchandising, support, this all costs.
How much did the new GTA spend on advertising alone? It'd be nice to get a million players on this.

$30-odd million is enough to make the game. That is all it will cover.

you know what would be the best way for crowd funding games if the full source code was made available once the devs have stopped supporting the game so the community can carry on evolving the game as they see fit.

Why should they?
It's a company asset, like any other.
Might as well insist that a company sells off the original film reels that a movie was shot on, or an author gives away the typewriter they wrote their bestseller on.
I'm sure the copyright to the game would include the code, otherwise anyone could come out with a sequel or something and make free profit off the code someone else worked darn hard to create.
Ownership *may* also imply responsibility for maintenance, service provision and so forth.

also when they say people running their own servers I hope they don't mean as in renting them from us with limited access to modify stuff which most companies seem to be doing now.

Freelancer (another CR title) did exactly this with private servers (that's all there is now) and those were indeed all privately owned, privately modded and privately funded.

the programmers might have worked hard but it cost them nothing and they earned a living doing something they enjoy.
it should belong to the people who paid for it not the people who made it.

By that exact same logic - *I* should own the entiure Star Wars franchise, then!!

I'm not saying release source code immediately but at some point with crowd funding games I reckon its the moral thing to do especially when the budget is as massive as this is.

Assuming this game goes successfully on for years, chances are they will reuse that code. Besides, from the outset, we have been paying them to make the game as THEY saw fit. We didn't comission them to make a game that we specced up.
It's their call as to what they make and how they make it.

very few total conversion mods unlike back in the 90s and early 00's

Again, Freelancer has a few total con-mods. It's just a big job for a small team or a lone person, so it doesn't happen that often. But who knows... Maybe CIG will indeed follow this path.

 

[arknor]

Calling $30 million a lot for such an ambitious MMO is naieve. SWTOR cost somewhere between $150 -200 million and that was a pile of ****.

most of that was on cut scenes and voice actors

this game is also not an mmo it does not need an mmo budget.

what was the budget of freelancer? probably a fraction of the mmos of the time

By that exact same logic - *I* should own the entiure Star Wars franchise, then!!

you funded george lucas ? or did you buy a product he made with investors money, investors who had rights , ownership , contracts and revenues

crowd funding is basically investing with no return not the same as buying a finished product

Why should they?
It's a company asset, like any other.
Might as well insist that a company sells off the original film reels that a movie was shot on, or an author gives away the typewriter they wrote their bestseller on.
I'm sure the copyright to the game would include the code, otherwise anyone could come out with a sequel or something and make free profit off the code someone else worked darn hard to create.
Ownership *may* also imply responsibility for maintenance, service provision and so forth.

source code is hardly the same as a physical item...many things have released the source code...

also open source does not allow commercial use so no one could make a game out of it unless it was free.


heres an interesting read for you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_video_games_with_available_source_code

The games in this table were originally developed proprietary as commercial closed source product. On the end of life of these games when no revenue was expected anymore (e.g. superseded by next generation or beyond support lifecycle), the source code was released. Instead of letting these games become unsupported Abandonware, they were opened under varying (free and non-free, commercial and non-commercial) licenses to the game communities or the public. This allows the game communities at least to provide technical support (bug fixes, adaption for new hardware and OSs) themselves, e.g. with unofficial patches or Source ports to actual platforms. Artwork and data is seldom released under a free license as the copyright entanglements are often more complicated than with the source code. See also Category:Commercial video games with freely available source code

so it's happened before seemingly fairly common at one point in time around the time modding was rife and developers encouraged it

 

[ttaskmaster]

you funded george lucas ? or did you buy a product he made with investors money, investors who had rights , ownership , contracts and revenues

And how do you think they make their revenues?
Cinema tickets, product purchases and so on, which is MY money.
Ultimately, in your words, I paid for it so I should own it.

But this is NOT investing in the game, or even in CIG. If it were, each pledge would not be purchasing ships, but stocks and shares and options and stuff. We would be receiving dividends of the SC profits and have the choice of selling, as well as being subject to the laws that govern such.

As is, we gave people money, with which to make something they described to us. That's all they have to achieve - Make what they said they would. How they do it is up to them.