Should Gary Barlow return his OBE?

It's a shame people believe that rich, important people can be held to the same account as the dumb, poor masses like us.

REMEMBER : The queen does not hand out OBE's, MBE's, Knighthood's etc to the likes of us (apart from a few isolated cases to keep us from rioting).

The nobles, barons, freemen never paid income tax or NI, or whatever they have to charge to the masses to keep the money flowing. Nothing has changed.

Now, we have a chance to do the same ourselves, but nah - we all try and keep each other just as penniless as each other to avoid jealousy, or 'morality' as it has been bandied around.
 
But why do you think they are hesitant - Cause and Effect. By implemented new tax rules you have winners and losers generally if you look at the financial/moral side. The whilst all these loopholes could be shut down the government would be worried about those effected upping sticks and leaving. Sometimes some tax is better than no tax if you ignore the public opinion side of the arguement
 
jimjamuk said:
OK :confused:
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It's fairly simple. Them and Us. It's a fairy tale to think Gary Barlow fills in a nice self assessment and hands over 40-50% of his earnings to HMRC to help keep babies alive in NHS bought incubators.

The rich stay rich. The poor stay poor. <meerkat>simlpes</meerkat> And that's coming from a capitalist who believes in the free market.
 
Richdog said:
Paragons of virtue? You are really looking for examples of paragons of virtue?

They don't exist except in your fantasy-driven mind, celebrity or otherwise, which is the point I and others have been unsuccessfully trying to drive home. This tax avoidance issue is not one of virtue or morality, it doesn't make you a "bad person", it is simple financial logic based on legal loopholes that the government is fully aware of and doesn't want to seem to do anything about.

Only people such as yourself and easyrider (who started the thread and apparently has all the financial knowledge of a floret of broccoli) are making a big hoo-haa about it being some kind of reprehensible act that is contributing towards all the ills of society.

There are many, many more important things to fix in our society than legal tax avoidance from individuals, which the government itself doesn't seem to be too concerned about other than in PR spurts. They and the tabloid rags make a fuss now and then, and the average bloke on the street who knows next to zero about it other than the sensationalist articles he reads gets riled up about it and comes on to OCUK to post threads.
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You keep calling them "loop holes" whilst saying other people don't know about the tax system. These are 'schemes' not loop holes (a loop hole suggests someone forgot to add something) and were designed with good intentions.

It is companies and individuals pretending to qualify for them or making themselves via changing their set ups. It's not as simple as you suggest, the government just close the loop holes and everyone will play ball. It's just a big game of cat and mouse, as soon as the law is changed the companies re-designed themselves so they qualify another scheme.

So unless you have a flat rate policy (which discourages investment and makes it very hard for small businesses to get off the ground) there will always be "loop holes".

My solution would be for a flat rate coupled with various schemes that business have to apply for (not automatically qualify for as now) at which point a judge or independent adjudicator should look at the company and all of its subsidiaries and decide whether they are worthy of the cut.
 
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nucastle said:
It's fairly simple. Them and Us. It's a fairy tale to think Gary Barlow fills in a nice self assessment and hands over 40-50% of his earnings to HMRC to help keep babies alive in NHS bought incubators.

The rich stay rich. The poor stay poor. <meerkat>simlpes</meerkat> And that's coming from a capitalist who believes in the free market.
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Ah the them and us line......

oh and babies are dying because GB doesnt hand over 40-50% of his earnings.

I'm not even going to bother arguing with this, its just not worth it as it will go in one ear and out the other. Reminds me of the time I had the misfortune of reading the unite magazine whilst getting a coffee at a clients. Unbelievable stuff
 
nucastle said:
It's a shame people believe that rich, important people can be held to the same account as the dumb, poor masses like us.

REMEMBER : The queen does not hand out OBE's, MBE's, Knighthood's etc to the likes of us (apart from a few isolated cases to keep us from rioting).

The nobles, barons, freemen never paid income tax or NI, or whatever they have to charge to the masses to keep the money flowing. Nothing has changed.

Now, we have a chance to do the same ourselves, but nah - we all try and keep each other just as penniless as each other to avoid jealousy, or 'morality' as it has been bandied around.
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Do you want to borrow my copy of the The Mirror?
 
estebanrey said:
So people have no responsibility to play by the spirit of the game then? IMO, people should carry out their affairs as if no tax system existed and then pay what is demanded of them, not set themselves up as companies, employ themselves as minimum wage staff then take the rest in shares and other crud like that. Why would anyone do that except for the sole purpose of avoiding tax?
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No they don't have to play by some crazy damn spirits of a game invented by no-one no.

They play by the rules and maintain their legal responsibility. You are talking cloud cuckoo nonsense.
 
The issue isnt with people/corps avoiding paying tax. The issue is with the loop holes that allow people/corps to legally avoid playing large chunks.

If it is 100% legal then the issue you are raising is with the system and keepers of the system. Not with the individual.

You can argue ethics all day long, but if he hasnt broken the law then there is no case to answer other than some hyped up witch hunt that usually ensues.
 
kitch9 said:
No they don't have to play by some crazy damn spirits of a game invented by no-one no.

They play by the rules and maintain their legal responsibility. You are talking cloud cuckoo nonsense.
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Give up while you still have some sense. Theres no point arguing with them.

On a related point - do you think I should hand myself into the police? as today I really wanted to punch a guy at work in the face. I didnt actually break any rules or laws but in my head I'm guilty as sin. Maybe I should play the game and go along and report myself to plod, I'm sure all my peers see me as guilty...
 
No1newts said:
Why should someone who works hard be punished?

Oh that's right, rampant jealousy from scroungers, the joy that is Britain.
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Did anyone end up pointing out the ridiculous hypocrisy/irony in this statement?

If you want to talk about 'scroungers' I think the biggest scroungers of all (because they do it on the largest scale) are the big MNCs who pay zero (or close to zero) tax and yet are happy to freeload on our education system, the NHS, the police, the courts, etc, etc. All of that costs money and is vital to any big business, so they should pay their fair share too.
 
jimjamuk said:
Ah the them and us line......

oh and babies are dying because GB doesnt hand over 40-50% of his earnings.

I'm not even going to bother arguing with this, its just not worth it as it will go in one ear and out the other. Reminds me of the time I had the misfortune of reading the unite magazine whilst getting a coffee at a clients. Unbelievable stuff
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You need to go and read the first of my comments a few pages back you silly sausage.

I have NO PROBLEM with tax avoidance. In fact people should pay as little tax as humanly, legally possible. I have two accountants making sure I do that very thing.

That comment was about the delusions of the public in believing that rich people should act just like the plebs and hand over most of their earnings in PAYE.
 
Richdog said:
Legal tax avoidance methods are generally termed loopholes, lets not be needlessly pedantic https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=t...UTF-8#es_sm=122&espv=210&q=tax+loophole+legal
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Given I went on to explain why I don't like the word loop hole and why using that definition clouds the issue it's not really being needless pedantic is it?

The way you state it is as if the tax laws have a few missing lines here and there and if the government just fill them in then there would be no tax avoidance and until they do there is nothing morally wrong with exploiting them.

That is not the way I see it. I see any tax system in a large contry like ours must be necessarily complex, to ensure that everyone pays their fair share. Tax breaks and schemes that allow people to pay less tax are needed, they are not 'loop holes', but the problem comes when companies/people change themselves (in some cases in very convoluted ways) so they then qualify for the schemes that weren't ever intended for that use.

But hey, I'm not the one suffering from Joe The Plumber syndrome
 
Dimple said:
GIVE ME YOUR ******* MONEY

and talking of Geldof I heard that he gets (or did get until recently) £50,000 for every talk he does on the back of Live Aid.
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It always annoys me that Geldof gets all the credit, yet Midge Ure is rarely mentioned, nor are Harvey Goldsmith or Hal Uplinger.

Grrr...
 
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