LIfe After Death

We have a thing called probability which is based on our current understanding on how things work.
For eg.
My second unknown point regarding an alternative reality - is it probable based on what we know? maybe.
My forth point would need the other three "unknowns" to be exist in order to true. Based on our current understanding, this is improbable.

The fact that you choose to ignore our current understanding of reality and believe in things without any evidence at all just shows you're living in a fantasy world. Unless you're privy to something which the rest of the world isn't?

Currently there is no evidence to form a practical statistical analysis from..we know the body dies...that is it...we do not know anything else...what death is like is something every individual will experience, but none can share.

You cannot form a rational probability value from an unknown. Both the positive and negative positions on Life After Death are formed in such an arena...we know one thing...The Body Dies, this is not in dispute...the actual discussion is what happens AFTER the body dies. So unless you are privy to something the rest of us are unaware of, then your argument against Banzai applies equally to you.

You believe there is oblivion (for which no evidence or related objective experience exists)...Banzai believes there is not (for which no evidence or related objective experience exists). Both of you may have formed this individual opinion through a reasoned and rational process, both of you may not have.

Personally, I don't know....I have yet to form or find an explanation or belief in which I can have faith...I question my own experiences with near death (which I have spoken about before) with regularity but still have no way to validate them outside of my own experience of them. I will, like you all, find out one day...by which time I will either have a true understanding (if we follow Banzai's field of thought) or in my oblivion it will not matter (if we follow Wickfut's field of thought).

For me the only rational position to take is...Life is for living, live it and let death look after itself.
 
For me the only rational position to take is...Life is for living, live it and let death look after itself.
I agree here.

I'd say it's better to live as though you are only here once so make them most if it.

The argument does have elements of Occam’s Razor, or the theory of least assumptions - for unknowns we can use reason to attempt to obtain a more justifiable explanation.

I've found a good website which gives a good breakdown of the main arguments against these concepts (saves me typing for the next half an hour!).

"The Argument from Brain Damage, Impairment and Structure.

Phineas Cage is usually the best example of this argument. Cage was a 19th century railroad worker who survived a large iron rod that destroyed his left frontal lobe. Long story short: his personality changed due to the absence of his left frontal lobe. Then there’s this interesting case outlined in a 2002 article at New Scientist.

A cancerous brain tumor led one man to exhibit abnormal sexual tendencies — even pedophilia. Then there’s the murderer’s brain. A cyst growth in the right hemisphere of the brain almost led a child to murder another child! Then there’s the brain structure of psychopaths — one that exhibits structural abnormalities.

Then there’s the brain structure of pathological liars. Clearly, the mind isn’t separate from the brain and is therefore, not separate from the body. Think of what the dualist is actually saying: they’re saying that autism, down syndrome, MR, genetic disorder, neurodegeneration and the like are all the result of damaged minds that existed prior to the body or are the result of damaged minds due to the rearrangement of matter — even before birth! Couple that with the fact that some dualists believe in a benevolent god and there’s a clear conundrum!

Argument from Biological Development:

This argument is far simpler from the above argument. It states that since we begin to exist as material beings and since nothing immaterial is added during development, we are wholly material beings once fully developed.

Argument from Neuroimaging:

Ironically, this is also an argument against libertarian free will. Some of our decisions can be detected 10 seconds prior to the actual decision via monitoring of brain activity. A good question can be raised here: if the mind is an immaterial substance, how can it be observed and its actions predicted via material means?

Argument from Simplicity:

This basically narrow’s down to Occam’s Razor. Why create a distinction when both can be explained in terms of one? Why offer an extra step or postulate an extra entity when it isn’t necessary? Therefore, the simplest explanation is to be preferred: the mind is dependent on the brain and the mind exists via the brain and thus isn’t a separate entity from the brain and body.

As materialism is related to naturalism, dualism is related to supernaturalism. A Christian who is a dualist would conclude that god is a mind that exists separate from a material body. Therefore, we must know how to dispel such a claim and we must be equipped with the best arguments to refute such a claim. On materialism and thus on naturalism, the mind cannot exist independently from the brain. Think of the implications: not only does that make the common notions of god impossible, but it also implies the impossibility of the common notions of the afterlife. Whether the afterlife consists of souls or bodiless minds or whether the afterlife consists of minds that receive new bodies, the distinctiveness of the mind is a must in order for both to be possible. Unfortunately, the mind is not distinct; therefore, the common afterlife concepts are also disproved."
 
Currently there is no evidence to form a practical statistical analysis from..we know the body dies...that is it...we do not know anything else...what death is like is something every individual will experience, but none can share.

You cannot form a rational probability value from an unknown. Both the positive and negative positions on Life After Death are formed in such an arena...we know one thing...The Body Dies, this is not in dispute...the actual discussion is what happens AFTER the body dies. So unless you are privy to something the rest of us are unaware of, then your argument against Banzai applies equally to you.

You believe there is oblivion (for which no evidence or related objective experience exists)...Banzai believes there is not (for which no evidence or related objective experience exists). Both of you may have formed this individual opinion through a reasoned and rational process, both of you may not have.

Believing in an afterlife and not believing in an afterlife are not equals in terms of probability.
With our current knowledge an afterlife is improbable, therefore the default stance should be that it doesn't exist.

If new evidence is brought forward that gives more credibility towards an afterlife then the probability of one existing would rise, and the default stance would change.
 
Believing in an afterlife and not believing in an afterlife are not equals in terms of probability.
With our current knowledge an afterlife is improbable, therefore the default stance should be that it doesn't exist.

If new evidence is brought forward that gives more credibility towards an afterlife then the probability of one existing would rise, and the default stance would change.
I'd avoid using the term probability, no variables or metrics exist to compare mathematically for either stance.
 
The problem is, there is no reason to believe any of the above.

No reason for you perhaps.

Belief in ultimate death seems in line with our understanding that the conciousness is formed as part of the brain - our minds are physical.

No quite...our understanding is that our Brains are physical...our minds (as an individual entity, the ego if you will) are somewhat more elusive to our understanding. What makes you you and not me for example?

As we map the brain through neuroscience, our understanding as how brain damage (localised) impacts of cognitive function - seems to further lend evidence to the physical nature of the conscious experience.

It only lends evidence to the point that the Brain (and by extension the corporal body) is the physical vessel of such Individual Consciousness. It cannot be rationally extrapolated to form a predictive probability of an alternative state outside of that corporeal existence, either in the positive or negative...that would be down to an individual and there particular interpretation of their own existence and what they glean from it. A little like a TV broadcast signal...the TV may be damaged and the picture and/or sound not being received or transmitted as originally broadcast, but does that mean the original broadcast is altered, or simply that the medium in which it is translated to the viewer is changed?

Really what's being proposed is substance dualism - again, another concept to which no evidence exists & has no predictive value whatsoever.

That would depend entirely on your perspective...'We are all StarDust' to paraphrase others...we have already been through a transitive state...who know what state lies ahead...it may be oblivion, it may not.

Precisely, which is as far as our views should go.

Sure..we should never attempt to push the boundaries of our own existential experience. Whatever next!!! ;)

Currently unexplained by science isn't interchangeable with supernatural - supernatural concepts are by definition not testable by science & do not exist within the realms of science (usually not in the physical world).

Some supernatural concepts!...others are simply unknown and get tagged 'supernatural' as there is currently no scientific way of testing or measuring the phenomena or hypotheses. Life After Death is one of the latter.

Currently unexplained is just that, unknown - we don't know what happens after death - true, but on the side we have no reason to believe anything happens after death either.

And we cannot form an objective predictive probability on either...as they would be formed on those unknowns. All we have is questions and an innate ability to formulate potential answers...some of which may eventually be tested and either accepted or discarded.
 
Currently there is no evidence to form a practical statistical analysis from..we know the body dies...that is it...we do not know anything else...what death is like is something every individual will experience, but none can share.

You cannot form a rational probability value from an unknown. Both the positive and negative positions on Life After Death are formed in such an arena...we know one thing...The Body Dies, this is not in dispute...the actual discussion is what happens AFTER the body dies. So unless you are privy to something the rest of us are unaware of, then your argument against Banzai applies equally to you.

You believe there is oblivion (for which no evidence or related objective experience exists)...Banzai believes there is not (for which no evidence or related objective experience exists). Both of you may have formed this individual opinion through a reasoned and rational process, both of you may not have.

Personally, I don't know....I have yet to form or find an explanation or belief in which I can have faith...I question my own experiences with near death (which I have spoken about before) with regularity but still have no way to validate them outside of my own experience of them. I will, like you all, find out one day...by which time I will either have a true understanding (if we follow Banzai's field of thought) or in my oblivion it will not matter (if we follow Wickfut's field of thought).

For me the only rational position to take is...Life is for living, live it and let death look after itself.

We know exactly what happens after the body dies. What we don't know is whether there is "something else" somehow connected to the body that may or may not continue to exist afterwards. The problem is, there is no evidence pointing towards the existance of such a "thing". Hence, no rational reason to consider it as a valid hypothesis.

Death is not a "thing", it is change. And no, you won't find out when you die, much like light energy doesn't find out what death is when it's converted into chemical energy by plants.
 
Believing in an afterlife and not believing in an afterlife are not equals in terms of probability.
With our current knowledge an afterlife is improbable, therefore the default stance should be that it doesn't exist.

If new evidence is brought forward that gives more credibility towards an afterlife then the probability of one existing would rise, and the default stance would change.

There is no metric to form an objective statistical analysis, as elmarko has previously stated...therefore our current knowledge cannot objectify one stance over the other.

The default stance is Unknown.

I'd avoid using the term probability, no variables or metrics exist to compare mathematically for either stance.

Indeed.

We can compare, evaluate and dismiss or indeed accept specific ideas and hypotheses (or parts thereof)...but that is all. We certainly cannot make definitive statements regarding the validity of the negative or positive stance (generally).
 
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We know exactly what happens after the body dies. What we don't know is whether there is "something else" somehow connected to the body that may or may not continue to exist afterwards. The problem is, there is no evidence pointing towards the existance of such a "thing". Hence, no rational reason to consider it as a valid hypothesis.

Death is not a "thing", it is change. And no, you won't find out when you die, much like light energy doesn't find out what death is when it's converted into chemical energy by plants.

In your assumptive opinion. Death is indeed a change...while we know what happens to the body, we know very little else, just like we know very little about how our minds (as opposed to our brains) work. So the only irrationality here is your assumption that there is a definitive answer to the question. There is not.
 
There is no metric to form an objective statistical analysis, as elmarko has previously stated...therefore our current knowledge cannot objectify one stance over the other.

The default stance is Unknown.

but they aren't equal. An unknown assumption without any evidence suggesting it will happen vs an unknown based on our current understanding will be different.

To simplify. I could say that a gnome lives in a bubble in the centre of the Earths core. Should the default stance be that it's unknown, or should the default stance be that I'm a crackpot?
 
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I'll assume that those who take the "default stance is life does not exist after death" are completely non religious then?
Are you the same people who say to a religious person "prove to me god exists or stfu, because without it, he doesn't!"?

Imagine the scene the day before scientist split the atom.....then the day after. How much egg on how many faces.

Personally i choose not to put ALL my faith and beliefs in what scientists can or can not prove.
Again, this is not from a religious pov, as i'm agnostic, but therein it lies, i'm agnostic. I'm open to the belief/existence of [insert subject here].

To be steadfast in saying 'there is no life after death' whilst i respect the viewpoint, i just find....you very trusting of science. Science that you yourself will probably understand about as much as you do the 'afterlife'.
This thread is obviously filled with neysayers, but all those that claim to have had experiences with things that science cant truly explain, really?
Take the Indian kid who claimed intimate knowledge of another person...
In one fascinating case, an Indian boy claimed to remember the life of a man named Maha Ram, who was killed with a shotgun fired at close range. This boy had an array of birthmarks in the center of his chest that looked like they could possibly correspond to a shotgun blast. So the story was checked out. Indeed, there was a man named Maha Ram who was killed by a shotgun blast to the chest. An autopsy report recorded the man's chest wounds -- which corresponded directly with the boy's birthmarks.

How does science explain that? And if it did come up with the theory, why would/should we believe it? Science is constantly being proven either wrong, or updating itself.
 
While I don't believe a definitive answer exists either (for non-testable concepts it's a fools errand to attempt to get one), not all theories are equal.

I agree we can't say for certain, but I don't agree we have a justifiable reason for believing that something exists beyond our scientific understanding of death.

Reasons exist for wanting to believe it - that I'll concede, but how much we want something to be true shouldn't impact on if we believe something is true or not.

Adding additional unnecessary layers onto an unknown event isn't a very good theory (Occam's razor), the final view of death is simply one which is in line with expected results (based on brain damage, reduced function, the predictability of certain decision making functions along with the usual the lack of evidence towards supernatural concepts).

The human experience as far as we know is intrinsically linked to the physical brain, for any after death experience we would need to formulate a method in which our conciousness is distinct from the brain & in some way able to survive outside of it - if we could do that then I'd be more willing to give ground on the viability of life after death, but until then I don't believe the concept is in line with our scientific understanding of the universe (which it doesn't specifically have evidence against it, the concept it'self isn't plausible & lacks any scientific backing - even by association).
 
but they aren't equal. An unknown without any evidence suggesting it will happen vs an unknown based on our current understanding will be different.

To simplify. I could say that a gnome lives in a bubble in the centre of the Earths core. Should the default stance be that it's unknown, or should the default stance be that I'm a crackpot?

The conceptual value of Life After Death (as in a myriad of ideas and propositions) is not the same as considering some gnome who lives in a bubble...such facile comparisons only illustrate a failure to understand the underlying nature of the concept itself. It is easy to evaluate a specific narrow hypotheses based on a broader concept, it is not so simple to dismiss the entire concept...particularly when the concept has such broad interpretive value.

They may not be equal to your understanding within your own perception and understanding, much like Elmarko has said he himself believes (note he states 'believes' he is not making a universal definitive statement, but a personal one based on his own rationale)......but that doesn't presuppose an objective approach to attributing a given statistical value to an unknown or being able to objectively make an universal definitive position while dismissing the opposite as irrational.
 
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In your assumptive opinion. Death is indeed a change...while we know what happens to the body, we know very little else, just like we know very little about how our minds (as opposed to our brains) work. So the only irrationality here is your assumption that there is a definitive answer to the question. There is not.

I assumed nothing. You're the one who is assuming there's such a thing as a mind that can be disconnected from the body, even if there is NO evidence to back up this claim. What happens to a rock when it's broken apart? What happens to an atom when it's split through fission? They both change and cease to exist in their previous form, forever. Same with death, there's no real mystery here, just the good old b(a)stard child of hope and fear clouding our judgement (not a derogatory comment).
 
I'll assume that those who take the "default stance is life does not exist after death" are completely non religious then?
Are you the same people who say to a religious person "prove to me god exists or stfu, because without it, he doesn't!"?

Imagine the scene the day before scientist split the atom.....then the day after. How much egg on how many faces.

Personally i choose not to put ALL my faith and beliefs in what scientists can or can not prove.
Again, this is not from a religious pov, as i'm agnostic, but therein it lies, i'm agnostic. I'm open to the belief/existence of [insert subject here].

To be steadfast in saying 'there is no life after death' whilst i respect the viewpoint, i just find....you very trusting of science. Science that you yourself will probably understand about as much as you do the 'afterlife'.
This thread is obviously filled with neysayers, but all those that claim to have had experiences with things that science cant truly explain, really?

That isn't correct. The viewpoint is that there is zero evidence to suggest that an afterlife exists so why believe in it? If evidence appears which shows otherwise then the viewpoint will change.

Take the Indian kid who claimed intimate knowledge of another person...

How does science explain that? And if it did come up with the theory, why would/should we believe it? Science is constantly being proven either wrong, or updating itself.

I have no idea. Just because something is "unknown" it doesn't automatically make some other claim true. A child having knowledge of someone else isn't evidence of an afterlife, a god, aliens, virgin births or fairies.
 
I assumed nothing. You're the one who is assuming there's such a thing as a mind that can be disconnected from the body, even if there is NO evidence to back up this claim. What happens to a rock when it's broken apart? What happens to an atom when it's split through fission? They both change and cease to exist in their previous form, forever. Same with death, there's no real mystery here, just the good old b(a)stard child of hope and fear clouding our judgement (not a derogatory comment).
Not the best analogy when cells divide as part of growth & life (while maintaining the original form). :D
 
I assumed nothing. You're the one who is assuming there's such a thing as a mind that can be disconnected from the body, even if there is NO evidence to back up this claim. What happens to a rock when it's broken apart? What happens to an atom when it's split through fission? They both change and cease to exist in their previous form, forever. Same with death, there's no real mystery here, just the good old b(a)stard child of hope and fear clouding our judgement (not a derogatory comment).

But we cannot say with any degree of certainty that conciousness is contained within the brain, therefore the rock analogy is irrelevant. Conciousness is not something we can see with our eyes.

There is massive philosophical debate on this issue, only the profoundly ignorant or arrogant would attempt to sweep that aside without due consideration.
 
I assumed nothing. You're the one who is assuming there's such a thing as a mind that can be disconnected from the body, even if there is NO evidence to back up this claim. What happens to a rock when it's broken apart? What happens to an atom when it's split through fission? They both change and cease to exist in their previous form, forever. Same with death, there's no real mystery here, just the good old b(a)stard child of hope and fear clouding our judgement (not a derogatory comment).

You are assuming that 'a change' is not congruent within any hypotheses on Life After Death...indeed Death is a change of state...you are assuming that the nature of that change is within the limits of your own current understanding...ie our consciousness is merely a manifestation of our corporeal brain...which it might well be...but like the splitting of the atom, death may yield far more than the body would imply.
 
Not the best analogy when cells divide as part of growth & life (while maintaining the original form). :D

Quite....we may simply be analogous to that cell..but on a universal scale. The Living Universe hypotheses, Gaia, Godhead, whatever you want to call it....

In reality, Life After Death is a philosophical question, science has not yet the tools nor we the understanding to truly attempt to answer such questions.
 
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