Richard Dawkins sums up religion

Castiel · 3 Dec 2013 at 18:53

Thompson_NCL said:
I don't see goal posts moving, I see human understanding growing.
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Indeed....how we interpret such a universal concept as God has changed as we gain more knowledge and experience...this is true for pretty much all human knowledge and experience. We should also remember that some of the most ancient of religions are also the most complex..Hinduism for example their idea of God is not very much different from modern interpretations of the concept.

So it isn't the goal posts that are moving, simply our understanding and ability to convey complex concepts growing.

Schlong&Stable · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:00

OhEsEcks said:
LOL @ The ancient greeks having little understanding of the solar system.

Relative to our modern understanding, they had a very limited understanding.

m4rk84 · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:03

Castiel said:
Indeed....how we interpret such a universal concept as God has changed as we gain more knowledge and experience...this is true for pretty much all human knowledge and experience. We should also remember that some of the most ancient of religions are also the most complex..Hinduism for example their idea of God is not very much different from modern interpretations of the concept.

So it isn't the goal posts that are moving, simply our understanding and ability to convey complex concepts growing.

It is goal posts moving though, who is to say that one day we won't find traces of what exists outside of our universe? If we did, our understanding would grow and thus God's place would have to shift somewhere else.

It doesn't matter what is discovered there will always be a new place where God exists.

It's interesting to see people asking the question "How did something come from nothing?" because it's pretty well documented and explained how the universe does indeed come from 0 energy and still to this day has the sum of 0 energy.

It can be seen everywhere in the true language of the universe, maths. Maths is full of signs of the symmetry of negative energy balancing positive energy, it's the very reason the "=" sign exists.

Skunkworks · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:04

estebanrey said:
I'm willing to bet that in Skunkworks' mind, society becoming "screwed up" means gay people not having to hide their sexuality and not being persecuted and abortions being legal.

I'll take that bet.

OhEsEcks · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:04

Thompson_NCL said:
Relative to our modern understanding, they had a very limited understanding.

Not particularly accurate to todays standards? Yes. Limited? Hell no.

[FnG]magnolia · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:05

This is going swimmingly, isn't it? We're all learning something

estebanrey · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:06

Thompson_NCL said:
I don't see goal posts moving, I see human understanding growing.

An ancient Greek had little understanding of the solar system and space, his view of the universe was much more grounded. So when he had to explain where his gods were, he looked for the highest peak (or so we think, it may be the the mountain was named for the mythic home of the Gods, not vice versa) and said 'up there, beyond our reach'.

The point was and always is, that the God(s) exist beyond where we can see. That point has remained constant.

That may well explain God's location moving but not things like the tides, thunder storms and night and day which were all previously attributed to God whilst now are fully well understood (unless you're Bill O'Reilly who still thinks the tides coming in and out are inexplicable).

Castiel · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:07

m4rk84 said:
It is goal posts moving though, who is to say that one day we won't find traces of what exists outside of our universe? If we did, our understanding would grow and thus God's place would have to shift somewhere else.

By which definition, all of human understanding and endeavour is merely moving goal posts.

Stretch · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:09

kedge said:
That's not absolute evidence, that's just evolutionists opinion based on their findings.

A scientific theory is not based on opinion, it's evidence and concuss based.

A good example of this is global warming.

It is the opinion of many, and there is a huge amount of scientific evidence to show global warming is real, and it's been caused by humans.

However, global warming is not a scientific theory. Why not? Because others in the scientific community have evidence to throw the hypothesis into question.

The evolution hypothesis, has been through the process of test, peer review, re-test... for a period of many decades. An evidence based consensus has formed, and it's become an accepted theory.

Castiel · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:10

Thompson_NCL said:
Relative to our modern understanding, they had a very limited understanding.

Interestingly it wasn't until around the 5th Century BC that Greece began to move away from a literal relationship with their Gods...around the same time as their science and philosophical renaissance that we now commonly refer to as Classical Greece.

Schlong&Stable · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:11

OhEsEcks said:
Not particularly accurate to todays standards? Yes. Limited? Hell no.

You're being rather tedious. The Ancient Greeks were aware of many astral objects, their movements and so forth, indeed. But to suggest their understanding was anything more than rudimentary by today's standards is patently false.

If you disagree and want to debate the point, please try to form a cogent argument.

Interestingly it wasn't until around the 5th Century BC that Greece began to move away from a literal relationship with their Gods...around the same time as their science and philosophical renaissance that we now commonly refer to as Classical Greece.

I cannot say I know much about that, but it doesn't come as a surprise and it is certainly an interesting point. I would argue that as a civilization advances, it moves through different levels of spiritual understanding. We've possibly reached a terminus for the existing religions, but I am absolutely certain new ones will pop up.

Cleisthenes · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:13

I could literally spend days watching him destroy people's beliefs. Sounds sort of like i'm a sadist but it is strangely entertaining

thep02 · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:17

I like how religious people aren't defending their particular scriptures or church doctrines and are just defending the concept of an amorphous god in general, if we keep this up we might unite the troublesome three, Christians, Muslims and Jews who all start off supposedly worshipping the same god but disagree on doctrine.

OhEsEcks · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:17

Thompson_NCL said:
You're being rather tedious. The Ancient Greeks were aware of many astral objects, their movements and so forth, indeed. But to suggest their understanding was anything more than rudimentary by today's standards is patently false.

If you disagree and want to debate the point, please try to form a cogent argument.

I'm being tedious? The ancient greeks, while not particularly accurate by todays standards, where still pretty bloody accurate in their understanding of the stars. Especially when they were making things like these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_Mechanism

Stretch · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:19

Lysander said:
The difference between science people and spiritual people is that science people continually have to try to prove their point. Spiritual people just know.

Wait for the day when it's proven that science is spirituality and vice versa. All is one.

This statement completely misunderstand the concept of science. Science can't "just know", and it entire purpose is to "prove [or disprove] a point".

If either of these are removed, it's no longer science.

Schlong&Stable · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:21

OhEsEcks said:
I'm being tedious? The ancient greeks, while not particularly accurate by todays standards, where still pretty bloody accurate in their understanding of the stars. Especially when they were making things like these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_Mechanism

Yes, I was looking at the remains of that less than a month ago, it's a rathering interesting device.

But this doesn't really support your flailing argument, because you concede that were not 'particularly accurate by today's standards'. Which was precisely my point.

Knowing the existence of astral objects and their movements does not in any way alter my previous post. You are being tedious.

OhEsEcks · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:23

Thompson_NCL said:
Yes, I was looking at the remains of that less than a month ago, it's a rathering interesting device.

But this doesn't really support your flailing argument, because you concede that were not 'particularly accurate by today's standards'. Which was precisely my point.

Knowing the existence of astral objects and their movements does not in any way alter my previous post. You are being tedious.

Flailing argument? You said they had a very limited understanding of the solar system. You, quite obviously, are wrong. Now stop being a tedious idiot.

Castiel · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:26

OhEsEcks said:
Flailing argument? You said they had a very limited understanding of the solar system. You, quite obviously, are wrong. Now stop being a tedious idiot.

You are being tedious....it was quite apparent he was stating such in relation to modern understanding of cosmology...he even clarified it. And by our standards the ancient Greeks (as in classical rather than preclassical) had a limited understanding, and their philosophical concepts and beliefs reflected this. As I pointed out, when Greece began to expand its knowledge during this period, its religious beliefs also changed accordingly....as their understanding grew as did the complexity of their philosophical ideas also.

OhEsEcks · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:27

Castiel said:
You are being tedious....it was quite apparent he was stating such in relation to modern understanding of cosmology...he even clarified it. And by our standards the ancient Greeks (as in classical rather than preclassical) had a limited understanding, and there philosophical concepts and beliefs reflected this.

Oh look Castiel is coming in to give an opinion nobody wanted. Colour me surprised.

[FnG]magnolia · 3 Dec 2013 at 19:30

I'm trying to think of some joke about wanting God on your Hide and Seek team but ... nope, it's not coming. I'll be sure to keep you informed of any progress I make :cool: