Why should we accept and accommodate people being fat?
- Thread starter One More Solo
- Start date
Is it because lazy?.
Why is this so hard to get across..
That's clearly not true because you yourself use more effort than required. You won't just keel over if you don't go and exercise on the weekends, but you motivate yourself to go anyway.
No doubt you'll simply say "because I'm not lazy". Well, why is that? Why is it that some people are what you consider to be lazy? Do you not think there are reasons?
It's called efficiency.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_locomotion contains a reference. Good enough for you?
It's common sense. For most lifeforms it is a struggle to get sufficient energy to make it through the day. That's why things like elephants have to consume huge amounts of vegetation. Thus, knowing that they can not guarantee their next meal no energy is wasted. This goes right down to the microbiological level.
Humans evolved this way too. We have now reached a point however where we effectively can guarantee our next meal.
And to Zenf, you're getting it completely backwards. If I was using more effort than required I would be losing weight. I would be keeling over if I did excess exercise through STARVATION. Have you heard of that? It's when your body doesn't get enough energy or nutrition.
If I didn't go and exercise at the weekends I would be getting fatter.
Fair enough in that aspect I can agree. Work on the basis that the task being losing weight youd expend more energy to below the required limit. Cheers for the link.
However I also agree that there is a lot more too it than just laziness.
Isnt the main point to this "arugment" your having based on overeating and why rather than the reason for putting on weight? If I eat below my RDA I can be as lazy as anything and still be losing weight. Yet the main problem with laziness is when its in conjunction with over eating as in above RDA.
However I also agree that there is a lot more too it than just laziness.
Isnt the main point to this "arugment" your having based on overeating and why rather than the reason for putting on weight? If I eat below my RDA I can be as lazy as anything and still be losing weight. Yet the main problem with laziness is when its in conjunction with over eating as in above RDA.
Last edited:
Can you explain how the phrase "No organisms will use more effort than required for a task." relates to the concept of laziness.
You are talking about maintaining a calorie deficit, but ignoring the fact that reasons exist as to why some people are unable to do that.
Nobody is saying that for most maintaining a calorie deficit is how to drop the pounds, just that this task isn't the same in regards to difficulty for everybody & that other secondary reasons may exist as to why the person lacks the self-control or discipline to do that.
Is this how you debate?, constantly change the subject, start arguing against positions the other person doesn't hold (you have yet to admit the difference between 'too much' & 'lots').
Last edited:
Exactly. Getting fatter is not keeling over. Therefore, it's not necessary for you to exercise on the weekends. You will survive without it. Therefore, you are using more effort than required.
If you could answer this directly, it would be great.
Many people do far more exercise than is required for their survival, marathon runners for example. They can motivate themselves to do this and yet others can't, even when it has a detrimental effect. Why is it that some people can't? No doubt you'll simply say "because they're lazy". Well, why is that? Why is it that some people are what you consider to be lazy? Do you not think there are reasons?
No it doesn't. The average daily overeat that is required to become morbidly obese over a decade or so is only the equivalent of a hobnob a or two a day (And I mean a biscuit, NOT a whole packet!)
It just has to be consistent!
The typical bloater is not overweight because he is eating six Kebabs a day! He is eating six Kebabs a day because he is a Bloater!
It is a myth that the typical Bloater doesn't exercise!
I challenge anybody to the following thought experiment (Or you can even try it out if you like!)
Get a Fat-Suit!
Load it up with 200Lbs of lead weights
Go about your day to day life for a week!
Now tell me that....!
a) You haven't done any exercise!
b) You cant justify eating six Kebabs a day!
The "Insufficient calorific usage does" argument is technically entirely correct, but the actual problem of obesity is rather more subtle and complex.
The "Eat less, Exercise more" (And avoid High calorie food) solution consistently fails for the vast majority of people with a weight control issue! A different analysis and a different solution is desperately needed!
And the point i'm making is that too much is a completely subjective term, you, however, are certainly correct when you say too much for an individual will get cause weight gain. You have been arguing throughout however that some people are compelled to eat in larger quantities than the average person requires because of either medical, mental or genetic issues.
I am arguing that these are not reasons for a person to be fat. These reasons have existed throughout human existence. They will probably be at a similar percentage in our population now as they were 500, 1000 and 2000 years ago. Despite this fact, as has already been established, people as a whole are getting fatter. As a percentage there are more obese people now than there have ever been throughout history.
Is it because on average we're consuming more? I'd argue no, navvies for example were fed on a very high carbohydrate diet, normally consuming about 5000 calories a day consumed in the form of ale and bread mostly. The lords prayer refers to 'our daily bread' in the past this was infact a loaf! Bread is a very good source of calories. People on average simply do not consume this much any more.
The change I am saying is due to a decrease in activity due to us no longer having to travel on foot, do physical work because we have machines to do it for us.
Laziness. The quality of being unwilling to work or use energy. As i've already stated, organisms are evolved to use the minimum required energy, it's what helped them evolve in the first place, organisms are inherently lazy. Humans are no different. This is the major reason why people are lazy (i know you don't like that term but unfortunately we're not all psychological professionals but we do all speak English so it's staying.) is because we evolved to be lazy. There are no underlying psychological issues. It's evolution. We are hard wired not to get off our butts unless we need to and thus, most don't. This is why people as a whole are getting fatter.
I honestly don't get how you're struggling with that one tbh.
I need to get to the shop. It is 2 miles away. I can walk 2 miles. Or...I can walk 2 metres and get in my car.
I have the option of using less energy for a task. I do not have to take this but...lets face it, most would. That is because that is how creatures have evolved. There is absolutely nothing stopping me walking.
In short I am unwilling to use the extra energy required. Laziness by definition.
No it doesn't. The average daily overeat that is required to become morbidly obese over a decade or so is only the equivalent of a hobnob a or two a day (And I mean a biscuit, NOT a whole packet!)
It just has to be consistent!
The typical bloater is not overweight because he is eating six Kebabs a day! He is eating six Kebabs a day because he is a Bloater!
It is a myth that the typical Bloater doesn't exercise!
I challenge anybody to the following thought experiment (Or you can even try it out if you like!)
Get a Fat-Suit!
Load it up with 200Lbs of lead weights
Go about your day to day life for a week!
Now tell me that....!
a) You haven't done any exercise!
b) You cant justify eating six Kebabs a day!
The "Insufficient calorific usage does" argument is technically entirely correct, but the actual problem of obesity is rather more subtle and complex.
The "Eat less, Exercise more" (And avoid High calorie food) solution consistently fails for the vast majority of people with a weight control issue! A different analysis and a different solution is desperately needed!
Orion, I'm really not arguing that the typical bloater (lol) doesn't exercise. What I'm arguing is that they are not exercising enough!
I mentioned in an earlier post that people will have different calorific requirements, I, like most here am aware that a significant driver behind this is weight. As i've already explained work done = force x distance. Someone who weighs more is moving a greater force over the same distance and will therefore do more work.
I am arguing that they are not doing enough work. That is why they are larger.
As a side note, one of the main reasons we evolved to walk upright and not on all fours is because it uses less energy.
http://www.livescience.com/1702-walk-upright-beats-chimp.html
Little article on it there.
http://www.livescience.com/1702-walk-upright-beats-chimp.html
Little article on it there.
The data seems to indicate we are eating more.
Not to mention we are also consuming more sugar.
I didn't say it was a mental illness for most, just the reasons were psychological - in an environment in which very high calorie content food is easily available - coupled with the fact our lives are less physically demanding, greater amounts of willpower & self control are required than at any point in time.
Not everybody has the same level of will power & self-control & these are skills which when lacking attribute to an inability to maintain a sustainable & healthy diet.
You are correct that some of these are reasons why the individual needs self-control, but the point you seem unwilling to accept is that causal reasons exist for this deficit.
Soldato
- Joined
- 15 Feb 2012
- Posts
- 3,308
- Location
- 2
If it is true that "No organisms will use more effort than required for a task" and that being "unwilling to use the extra energy required" is the definition of laziness, then it follows that all organisms are lazy.
Making the term meaningless - really he should be saying fat people are efficient.
But why is that? Why is it that some make the effort and some don't? Is it just not worth consideration in your view?
"Some people are lazy, some people aren't, that's just the way it is, no point trying to look for underlying causes or thinking about it more deeply, better to not bother trying to understand."
That about right?
The data seems to indicate we are eating more.
Not to mention we are also consuming more sugar.
I didn't say it was a mental illness for most, just the reasons were psychological - in an environment in which very high calorie content food is easily available - coupled with the fact our lives are less physically demanding, greater amounts of willpower & self control are required than at any point in time.
Not everybody has the same level of will power & self-control & these are skills which when lacking attribute to an inability to maintain a sustainable & healthy diet.
You are correct that some of these are reasons why the individual needs self-control, but the point you seem unwilling to accept is that causal reasons exist for this deficit.
Whilst I appreciate the graphs (really, i love graphs) I'd argue that those presented don't show a long enough timescale to be of significant use. I'd love to see a graph showing a trend for say a couple of hundred years but appreciate we're unlikely to see one. Sugar intake doesn't necessarily relate to an individuals weight so i'll disregard that one although i get the point you're making.
I am actually seeing a point you've been making and it's struck me in your final sentence.
Let me sum my argument up as thus and see if we are in argreement:
All humans are inherently lazy. It is the way we have evolved. The vast majority of those humans have the ability to overcome laziness and ensure their physical health by doing sufficient exercise to overcome their calorific intake.
Some people are unfortunately mentally or physically incapable of doing so due to illness. These people do deserve understanding, help and though I am actually loathe to put it like this...acceptance (the reason I dislike that word is it implies that a conscious decision has to be made, I believe that one shouldn't have to be made).
Some people however do not have the...urge to get off their behinds and stop being fat, they are unwilling to overcome their laziness. These people have always existed. There must be a reason for this lack of motivation (your argument). They are now just more apparent because there are more of us and in general food is more easily available and physical movement is less required so their 'symptoms' are more visible.
Would you say you agree with this?
Last edited:
I honestly would agree with that statement. They are making more efficient use of the energy available to them.
Look at a boiler. A more efficient boiler needs less input. If you put the same in as you would an inefficient one it will run hot. It has an excess of energy present. This is the same as a fat person. They have excess energy which happens to be stored in the form of fat.
While it washes a little over the very part I was emphasising, it seems a fair assessment of reality & I agree with the statement.
My key point being, the lack of an 'urge to get off their behinds' has it's own attributing factors & elements - I'm not saying all fat people are mentally ill (not at all), or suffering from a condition preventing normal calorie burning/food consumption.
Just that many people lack the willpower required to control the eating, or do the exercise required (as you can be obviously either decrease calorie intake, or increase exercise).
This has become more problematic with the increase of easily available high calorie content food, if we had to personally farm or do physical labour for our meals very few would be fat.