Thomas Hitzlsperger announces he is gay

There does not need to be a debate about the role and presence of homosexuality. The fact is that a large number of people in the world are gay, and a large proportion of those people are treated inadequately by their respective societies on the basis of a sexual preference that they had no choice in, and in many cases is still considered a criminal activity.

Being persecuted for something that you are born into is utterly outrageous. It's the same as being persecuted for the colour of your skin.

Anyway, we do not know the true number of gay people in this country, or the world. This is in part because census data may actually not be that detailed, but in part because many gay people live in terror of someone finding out about their sexuality. In Uganda you can be imprisoned by the state, and many locals take the law into their own hands, executed gay people.

Is this acceptable to you? From my perspective, it is certainly not. It is no different from racism, other than being less obvious.

Once again I'll state, this story is a story because it opens (closet) doors for gay people who are scared of coming out, and will hopefully give them more courage and more trust that they might actually be accepted for the person that they were born to be.

Try living as someone that you're not. I doubt it's easy.

We're talking about the UK here, where there is not such "terror" with the exception of individual cases (something that will always be there and upon which arguments cannot be based).

The rest of the world falls under my human rights protection. Therefore I do not agree with it, but I respect countries autonomy to develop themselves. Don't make me sound like a colonist. ;)
 
Is it though?

There are bigots everywhere, in every walk of life, however homosexuality is accepted far more today in society than ever before...it is also given special protections (and rightly so) to enable people to live how they see fit and not be afraid of prejudice within their chosen profession. I find it overstated when someone famous or who already reached the pinnacle of their career 'comes out' tbh. Similarly with the forces. I served with two gay soldiers, it was never a big deal, not to me or anyone else, the one person who I recall made a comment on it got some pretty serious 'talking to'...essentially it's their business who they sleep with, not mine.

Sometimes I feel that some people live in the past and do not recognise that homophobia is not the issue to most people that they think it is. Just look at the reaction in Football to Thomas Hitzlberger, no one is condemning him, in fact everyone within football is happy for him, not condemning him. Fifty, or even thirty years ago, this would not have been the case. Equally with Tom Daley earlier this year. Neither of these people have been condemned for their sexuality, quite the opposite. How is this 'brave'? I understand it means something to the gay community as it gives them a degree of acceptance that perhaps some might feel they need, but I do not understand, in society as we are today, why people feel they need to hide their sexuality in the first place..this only perpetrates the illusion that homosexuality is something to be ashamed of when it is not. People should just be themselves from the outset, it is those people, particularly in the past that deserve our recognition, not those who hide their true self until the telling can no longer hurt them or their career.

It's the victim mentality coupled with the idea that when fully accepted (which I would argue that they are) and have no more marches to hold and causes to fight, that they'll fade away from the public eye and just become a small part of society which everyone ignores due to their statistical insignificance and lack of breeding capabilities.

They WANT friction and an argument. Hell it's the only reason we're even talking about this now. I'm probably the most conservative person here, and yet even I don't give a **** about what two consenting adults do.

At what point will they consider the fight won? Hell pmkeates above wants an over representation.
 
We're talking about the UK here, where there is not such "terror" with the exception of individual cases (something that will always be there and upon which arguments cannot be based).

The rest of the world falls under my human rights protection. Therefore I do not agree with it, but I respect countries autonomy to develop themselves. Don't make me sound like a colonist. ;)

I can appreciate that. We're not hugely homophobic here, but that doesn't mean that homophobia doesn't exist. It took bloody long enough for equal marriage laws to go through - it should have been a non issue.
 
It's the victim mentality coupled with the idea that when fully accepted (which I would argue that they are) and have no more marches to hold and causes to fight, that they'll fade away from the public eye and just become a small part of society which everyone ignores due to their statistical insignificance and lack of breeding capabilities.

So you think that gay people should be accepted but ignored? They shouldn't have a voice within society?

Do you also think that people who can't have kids for medical reasons (or age) should be ignored too?
 
I must say, kudos to Freefaller for your conduct in this thread and for being willing to take on board what people have said. It’s very refreshing to see someone willing to listen/learn and a good example to the forum.
 
I can appreciate that. We're not hugely homophobic here, but that doesn't mean that homophobia doesn't exist. It took bloody long enough for equal marriage laws to go through - it should have been a non issue.

Which is why more people should simply be themselves from the outset, not wait until they feel they are 'safe'...this only perpetrates difference and fuels homophobia. The brave people are those who are simply 'who they are' regardless of what others think, they are the pioneers of acceptance. It is they who should be lauded. Those that succeed openly in the face of bigotry, not so much those that hide who they are until they have reached a position where their homosexuality cannot be used against them. Until we have people routinely being open about their true selves then we will never have true acceptance in society. It is, in part, a self perpetrating situation.
 
I do not understand, in society as we are today, why people feel they need to hide their sexuality in the first place..this only perpetrates the illusion that homosexuality is something to be ashamed of when it is not.
From what I can gather gay people pick up on a general sense of homophobia, they internalise this feeling and hate themselves as a result. Hence all the associated metal issues.
You do need (famous) people to point to to reclaim a position of normality, a lot of fairly average pop stars have a huge lesbian fanbase for merely saying they are OK with gay girls.

There still reains some inbuilt preconceptions about women, otherwise (fake) lesbian porn wouldn't be so popular with men.

@Sportsbrah
I think the media is fairly male dominated, lesbians wouldn't get a look in (you can't trade on a women's sexuality if it's clear she's not interested in men). Homosexuals have no such barrier.
 
So you think that gay people should be accepted but ignored? They shouldn't have a voice within society?

Do you also think that people who can't have kids for medical reasons (or age) should be ignored too?

I think the point was that no one should be ignored, but everyone should be accepted equally...therefore no special emphasis being placed on a persons innate orientation or choice of sexual partner. Clearly we are not there yet, but the more people who do not hide who they are in fear of how it might adversely affect them the more society will be forced to accepted that homosexuality is a natural state for many people, simply that there is no 'them and us' they are not 'different' we are all but the same with different tastes and attractions. That is all.
 
From what I can gather gay people pick up on a general sense of homophobia, they internalise this feeling and hate themselves as a result. Hence all the associated metal issues.
You do need (famous) people to point to to reclaim a position of normality, a lot of fairly average pop stars have a huge lesbian fanbase for merely saying they are OK with gay girls.

The point I am trying to make is that when a successful sports star like Thomas Hitzlsberger comes out 'after' he has found success and has effectively 'nothing to lose' that doesn't encourage people to 'come out' and accept their homosexuality as normal, it does to some degree, perpetrate the notion that an individual has to hide their homosexuality in order to succeed..which seems to be counterproductive to what society should be striving to achieve. Tom Daley is to be commended on his 'coming out' as he still has something to lose if he was not accepted. That the reaction to him has been generally positive illustrates that it is possible to be a role model without hiding who you are until you have built a 'fortress' from where you can be yourself.

Society will never truly accept something as 'normal' until people start treating themselves as being normal. Not worded very well, but I hope you see the point I'm trying gto convey.
 
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Society will never truly accept something as 'normal' until people start treating themselves as being normal. Not worded very well, but I hope you see the point I'm trying to convey.
Isn't that always going to be the case though? (outing only when successful)

It's like expecting black people to ignore racism while it is still detrimental to their lives. Something is only racist when the other side holds all the power.
The problem stems from unnoticed (and unchallenged) homophobia within society, we should fix that before expecting gay people to come out.

Besides, no other sexuality has such scrutiny applied to what they do in bed, it's probably embarrassing for quite a few women.
 
Isn't that always going to be the case though? (outing only when successful)

It's like expecting black people to ignore racism while it is still detrimental to their lives.
The problem stems from unnoticed (and unchallenged) homophobia within society, we should fix that before expecting gay people to come out.

Besides, no other sexuality has such scrutiny applied to what they do in bed, it's probably embarrassing for quite a few women.

It's the opposite of ignoring it..it is facing it and standing up to it. By hiding who they are they are effectively perpetrating the notion that they are different and this is counter to the reality that they have nothing to be ashamed or vilified for.

I understand why people might feel they need to do this,but the point I was making is that those, like Tom Daley, who embrace their sexuality openly when they still potentially have something to lose are the 'brave' ones who should be recognised for that, Thomas Hitzlsberger, while it is good that he has come out, he would, in my humble opinion, would have better served the move toward acceptance and fight against homophobia in sport if he had not hidden away in the first place, that suggests that in order to succeed you must hide your sexuality and this is not in my opinion a good example to perpetrate. Footballers already don't feel they can be openly gay when playing, and Thomas has simply reinforced that rather than inspiring young players to be open about themselves.
 
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And yes, same goes for black, afford them all rights, but I fail to see how being black and a minority makes you anymore special or deserving of air time? Don't see how your example is at all relevant? Oh, let me guess, it's because you now want to charge me with racism because I don't pander to the race card.
If you had to pick a group of 10 people to represent 1000 other people, with 960 of one particular distinction and 40 of another, do you you not see the benefit in 'over-representing' the minority and picking 1 of those 10 from that 40? For me this is just a means to try and generally do things in a more inclusive way, and drawing on diversity as a strength. I don't think you want to actively discriminate against minorities, and one way of ensuring that is making a special effort to ensure they have a voice. There is very little chance that the majority will somehow go unheard.
No, I don't find it dangerous as long as there is an established and empowered protection of the basic rights. Aside from that I genuinely don't see what rights homosexuals should be given over their statistical presence. Why?! Why should a trait as personal as homosexuality be afforded more? Should everyone with "differing" views from the normal be afforded the same? If not why?
Fine, but the introduction of even basic rights i.e. legality of homosexual relations is something only fully established within the UK in the last 35 years. Civil partnerships are not even 10 years old. The first same sex marriages will take place in a few months time. I'd say this isn't quite 'established and empowered'. See above for comments regarding over-representation.
And your point about being accepted is moot. The overwhelming majority of people do not have a problem with homosexuality, the ide of being severely victimised is just pressure groups justifying themselves. Bit telling really that they have now taken their fight to other shores.....
I think 'overwhelming majority' is a false claim. The issue is particularly difficult as homophobia comes in pockets - certain geographical areas, industries, groups of whatever nature - and as such people in and around those pockets suffer unduly. I went to school in the last decade, and homophobia was rife - perhaps not unsurprisingly as it was quite a bad school in a poor working class area. 'Being gay' was the worst thing imaginable. People were absolutely villainised if they displayed any hint of it. I personally suffered homophobic bullying, even though I didn't really feel 'gay' at the time, and didn't particularly act or behave in a stereotypically gay manner. Here's a recent and tragic example - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...r-death-of-son-ayden-keenanolson-8943190.html - of a 14 year old committing suicide because of homophobic and racist bullying. The idea that we in the UK have done everything that needs to be done to ensure the equality, acceptance and tolerance of minority groups is sadly untrue.
Either way, you must concede that it isn't beyond the realms that people engaging in behaviour far outside of the norm (ONS states that 1.5% of Britain classifies them self as homosexual) are going to be perceived differently?
It's not beyond the realms that they are going to be perceived differently, no. That doesn't mean it's good and jolly for it to be perceived negatively. I think something is not going well if whether someone has deep green eyes or sleeps with members of their own sex are to be frowned upon. There's absolutely no rational reason to do so. We all have traits and attributes that make us a little different from one another. I think it'd be pretty boring if were all clones.
 
It's the victim mentality coupled with the idea that when fully accepted (which I would argue that they are) and have no more marches to hold and causes to fight, that they'll fade away from the public eye and just become a small part of society which everyone ignores due to their statistical insignificance and lack of breeding capabilities.

They WANT friction and an argument. Hell it's the only reason we're even talking about this now.
I think you are making very large sweeping statements without fully thinking them through. I struggle to believe you genuinely feel that homosexuals want friction and an argument about sexuality. For homosexual people it is innately a non-issue - there's no evidence to suggest anything different is felt by a homosexual than a heterosexual during love or sex or whatever. It is the existence of a society where the majority could ride roughshod over the minority that has ultimately led to it being an issue.
I'm probably the most conservative person here, and yet even I don't give a **** about what two consenting adults do.
Big C or little c? I have a badge of shame :p

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At what point will they consider the fight won? Hell pmkeates above wants an over representation.
As I said, there are lots of rational and logical reasons to over represent minorities. It's not a homosexuality point - it's a general point.
 
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