Sainsbury's Parking Ticket

Yeah I know, but he hasn't really said why you should pay up. If he's playing the moral / do the right thing for the poor little corporations card, then most people sort of grew out of that when they learnt about the real world. I'm going to go out on a limb here and wonder if Housey always plays by these 'pay up when you **** up' rules in all of his business dealings :p.

Have you read this thread at all? I have CLEARLY said why I think he should pay up. Also, at 46 years of age I have been in the real world longer than most who frequent this forum I suggest and perhaps have been down the well trodden road many a time and therefore try and move from 'yea but' debates to what is likely to happen in the real world. I don't always get it right, but then that is never a claim I have made.

I repeat, if the OP believes he is was wronged then fight it, that is why we have a legal system.
 
He hasn't broken the law, or done something wrong. He's broken a condition that a private company have chosen to put on a sign on the land they are managing. Why should he be out of pocket by £50, money that is pure profit for the company, just because he disobeyed their 'rule'. His car was allowed to be there, he is being charged £50 because he was not 'with it', pull the other one!
 
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Out of interest, what does "must stay with your car" actually mean.

1. Sitting in drivers seat.

2. Can I sit on the roof of my car? I am still "with" it.

3. Loading shopping from trolley to car, is that classed as "with it"?

There is no set radius from car that you have to be therefore you could state if you are within viewing distance of your car, circa 400m, you are still with your car?
 
Out of interest, what does "must stay with your car" actually mean.

Another excellent question. The ATM was literally 10 yards from the car and in direct sight of it!

The guy giving the ticket must have literally waited until my back was turned at the ATM :(
 
After all this can you or can't you read it I'm half tempted to drive down there and look

The "driver must remain with vehicle" text is readable from inside the vehicle, but I would contend is not particularly obvious.

The very small text at the bottom of pic 3 is barely readable even when standing right next to the sign!
 
The point I was making geekman, is that £60 might not be 'small change' to everyone, despite your bizarre assumption that everyone on OcUK couldn't care less about £60!? There are all sorts on here, would have thought you'd have noticed that by now.

I'm not saying it is small change to everyone. In fact, I've said he should definitely fight it, and have done myself on many occasions.

However, if you can afford to run a car but can't afford to lose £60 on a parking ticket, then I'm afraid that terrifies me. What would you do if you got a nail in your tyre, or a speeding fine, or if one of your shock absorbers went? All I'm trying to say is that the vast majority of people on OCUK motors have a car, and therefore really should be able to afford to pay it if they have to.

In other words, in the grand scheme of running a car, £60 really is small change, or it certainly should be anyway.
 
I'm not saying it is small change to everyone. In fact, I've said he should definitely fight it, and have done myself on many occasions.

However, if you can afford to run a car but can't afford to lose £60 on a parking ticket, then I'm afraid that terrifies me. What would you do if you got a nail in your tyre, or a speeding fine, or if one of your shock absorbers went? All I'm trying to say is that the vast majority of people on OCUK motors have a car, and therefore really should be able to afford to pay it if they have to.

In other words, in the grand scheme of running a car, £60 really is small change, or it certainly should be anyway.

I have no idea how any of that is relevant. I can afford to run a car but I'd be annoyed enough about a £60 parking ticket to put the effort into fighting it if that was the appropriate thing to do.
 
I'm not saying it is small change to everyone. In fact, I've said he should definitely fight it, and have done myself on many occasions.

However, if you can afford to run a car but can't afford to lose £60 on a parking ticket, then I'm afraid that terrifies me. What would you do if you got a nail in your tyre, or a speeding fine, or if one of your shock absorbers went? All I'm trying to say is that the vast majority of people on OCUK motors have a car, and therefore really should be able to afford to pay it if they have to.

In other words, in the grand scheme of running a car, £60 really is small change, or it certainly should be anyway.

On something like a parking ticket, I can see most having an issue regardless of whether £60 is much money to them or not, whereas on maintenance of your car you can actually see where the money has gone as you get something tangible in return for spending out.
 
[TW]Fox;25775419 said:
I have no idea how any of that is relevant. I can afford to run a car but I'd be annoyed enough about a £60 parking ticket to put the effort into fighting it if that was the appropriate thing to do.

This. I didn't say that I can't afford to pay it, just that it's a significant quantity of money to me.
 
[TW]Fox;25775419 said:
I have no idea how any of that is relevant. I can afford to run a car but I'd be annoyed enough about a £60 parking ticket to put the effort into fighting it if that was the appropriate thing to do.

As would I. But if you lost, you could afford to pay it: it wouldn't be a massive issue for you, would it? I think the initial point of what I was saying has been lost somewhat: I was simply disagreeing with Participant's opinion that Housey was bragging about how rich he was, as I don't think £60 is a large sum for most of us.

On something like a parking ticket, I can see most having an issue regardless of whether £60 is much money to them or not, whereas on maintenance of your car you can actually see where the money has gone as you get something tangible in return for spending out.

If most people had an issue or could be bothered fighting these tickets, the companies would collapse overnight. Clearly, the majority of people choose to pay them, rightly or wrongly.

For the 100th time, I would not pay it, and am not encouraging the OP to pay it by any means. I'm simply saying that I can see why some would pay it, as £60 isn't a vast sum of money, and the appeals take quite a lot of time if you're not used to doing them.
 
I was talking in a relative sense, not absolute that £60 is a lot of money. Whether it's a lot is relative to what it's for.

I also never said you were encouraging the OP to pay up, but these companies thrive because of the fear they instil in people with three threatening language they use in their correspondence, over any other reasons.
 
As would I. But if you lost, you could afford to pay it: it wouldn't be a massive issue for you, would it? I think the initial point of what I was saying has been lost somewhat: I was simply disagreeing with Participant's opinion that Housey was bragging about how rich he was, as I don't think £60 is a large sum for most of us.

I still don't see the relevence. Nowhere has either the OP nor Participant suggested that £60 is some sort of life or death can't afford amount.
 
[TW]Fox;25775419 said:
I have no idea how any of that is relevant. I can afford to run a car but I'd be annoyed enough about a £60 parking ticket to put the effort into fighting it if that was the appropriate thing to do.

Same here. No matter the value of my car I keep 1/3 of it's value in my bank for repairs (no warranties on cars I buy (disadvantage of riding the depreciation curve)) however that doesn't mean I will go throwing £60 around like it is nothing...that's 550 miles of fuel!
 
I managed to find one of my old appeals, which has a lot of paragraphs based on previous successful appeals by others. OP, this should help you, but also give you an idea of what's involved to avoid paying your £60, and why I've said that for many it's too much hassle for the sake of £60. I'll put it in spoiler tags as it's a bit lengthy. :p

Dear Sir/Madam,

POPLA appeal re MET Parking ticket number xxxxxxxxxx

The Registered Keeper is not liable for the parking charge and the vehicle was not improperly parked. As such, the parking 'charge' notice exceeds the appropriate amount. MET Parking is requiring payment from the Registered Keeper under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. The keeper says they have not met all the conditions imposed by this Act and so there is no obligation or liability on them at all. In addition they have failed to show that this standard fixed charge in that car park is a genuine pre-estimate of loss, have not formed any fair contract with the driver to justify the amount demanded and have not complied with all aspects of the BPA Code of Practice.

BPA CODE OF PRACTICE BREACH - NO 'CREDITOR' IDENTIFIED
The Notice I have received makes it clear that MET are relying on Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. As such, there must be strict compliance with all of its requirements in order to take advantage of the rights granted under that Act to pursue the registered keeper in respect of a driver’s alleged 'charge'. MET has failed to comply in the wording of their Notice to Keeper since they have failed to identify the “Creditor”. This may, in law, be MET or indeed some other party. The Act requires a Notice to Keeper to have words to the effect that “The Creditor is….”

The wording of Paragraph 9(2)(h) of Schedule 4 of the Act does not indicate that the creditor must be named, but “identified”. The driver is entitled to know the identity of the party with whom he has allegedly contracted and in failing to specifically identify the “Creditor”, MET has failed to provide any evidence that it, or a third party, is entitled to enforce an alleged breach of contractual terms and conditions.

NO EVIDENCE OF PARKING TIME OR SUFFICIENT DETAIL OF CONTRAVENTION
A registered keeper like myself cannot make an informed decision based on a couple of photos of a car driving in and out of the entrance area of a car park at different times and no clear explanation of the alleged contravention.

The Operator is relying simply on pictures taken of a vehicle at first arrival and then when leaving. These pictures show no evidence at all of actual parking time or where the car was after driving in, whether it stayed in the car park or left and then returned within the recorded timescale.
The postal 'ticket' fails to clarify the issue and so it is a nullity, since it fails to meet the requirements for a Notice to Keeper under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.
The wording from the Notice to Keeper quoted fails to specify precisely which term of the alleged contract was allegedly breached; the Notice therefore fails to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 Clause 9(2)© and no keeper liability can arise.

ANPR REQUIREMENTS- PART 21 OF THE BPA CODE OF PRACTICE
MET Parking have failed to show me any evidence that the cameras in this car park comply with the requirements of the BPA Code of Practice part21 (ANPR). I need POPLA to consider whether the Operator has shown documented evidence of contemporaneous manual checks of the cameras, clocks and related machinery in that particular car park. These maintenance checks are a requirement of section 21 of the Code.

UNCLEAR & NON-COMPLIANT SIGNAGE FORMING NO CONTRACT WITH DRIVERS The signage failed to comply with the BPA Code of Practice Appendix B, and that entrance signage is not readable by the driver of a moving vehicle as he enters the land cannot bind that driver into a contract.

I believe the signs and any core parking terms MET Parking are relying upon were too high and too small for any driver to see, read or understand when driving into this car park. The Operator needs to show evidence and signage map/photos on this point - specifically showing the height of the signs and where they are at the entrance, whether a driver still in a car can see and read them when deciding to drive in. Any terms displayed, do not alter the contract, which must be shown in full at the entrance.

I believe the signs failed to properly and clearly warn/inform the driver of the terms in this car park and any consequences for breach, as was found in a comparable camera-reliant car park in the case of Excel Parking Services Ltd v Martin Cutts, 2011.

MET Parking needs to prove that I actually saw, read and accepted the terms, which means that I and the POPLA adjudicator would be led to believe that a conscious decision was made by me to park in exchange for paying the extortionate fixed amount the Operator is now demanding.

The idea that any driver would accept these terms knowingly is perverse and beyond credibility. This is not a fair ‘contract’ nor a contract at all.

So in addition, because the signs fail to properly inform drivers of the full terms & conditions in a very prominent place at a low enough height at the entrance, the elements of a contract have not been met. Any alleged contract would be formed at the entrance to the premises, prior to parking. It is not formed after the vehicle has already been parked, as this is too late.

MET Parking do not provide signage of sufficient written text size or at a suitable height to be read from the vehicle at the entrance or at any location on the premises. They may claim that generic signage is displayed around the car park on poles but this does not meet the requirements for consideration when forming the alleged contract.

NO BREACH OF CONTRACT AND NO GENUINE PRE-ESTIMATE OF LOSS
Were a contract to exist (which is denied) there has been no loss to MET Parking or the owners/managers of the retail park arising from the alleged overstay; accordingly the charge sought is an unenforceable contractual penalty.
Should MET Parking choose instead to claim that the charge is an agreed contractual charge (contrary to the wording in their notice) this fails on the grounds that (i) it is clearly punitive and intended as a deterrent, in that it only (allegedly) became payable upon the breach of other terms in the alleged contract (ii) no means of payment was available at the time the charge allegedly fell due and (iii) no VAT invoice was issued. Accordingly it is clearly a penalty and therefore unenforceable.

CONTRACT WITH THE LANDOWNER - NOT COMPLIANT WITH THE BPA CODE OF PRACTICE AND NO LEGAL STATUS TO OFFER PARKING OR ENFORCE TICKETS
MET Parking does not own the car park and we dispute that they have the authority to enter into contracts regarding the land or to pursue charges allegedly arising.
MET Parking has also not provided any evidence that it is lawfully entitled to demand money from the driver or keeper. They do not own nor have any proprietary or agency rights or assignment of title or share of the land in question. I do not believe that the Operator has the necessary legal capacity to enter into a contract with a driver of a vehicle parking in the car park they do not own, or indeed the lawful status to allege a breach of contract in their name.

MET Parking must provide documentary evidence in the form of a copy of the actual site agreement/contract with the landowner/occupier (not just a signed slip of paper saying it exists). Specifically, to comply with the Code of Practice, the contract needs to specifically grant MET Parking the right to pursue parking charges in the courts in their own name, as creditor.

CPUTR VIOLATION IN NOTICE OF APPEAL REJECTION
Paragraph 2 of the second page of the Appeal Rejection Notice dated 16/07/2013 states that I will be “required to pay the full amount of £100” should POPLA not rule in my favour. As well as being extremely misleading, this is a clear CPUTR violation, as I am still not required to pay anything in the event of my appeal failing

UNLAWFUL PENALTY CHARGE
Since there was no demonstrable loss/damage and yet a breach of contract has been alleged, this 'charge' can only be an unlawful attempt at dressing up a penalty to impersonate a parking ticket.

Private parking tickets unrelated to any genuine loss are unenforceable penalties, as was found in Excel Parking Services v Hetherington-Jakeman (2008), also OBServices v Thurlow (review decision by Circuit Judge, February 2011), and UKCPS v Murphy (April 2012).


On the basis of all the points I have raised, this 'charge' fails to meet the standards set out in the BPA CoP and not only fails to comply with basic contract law, but is a clear violation of the CPUTR 2008.

It is unfair and punitive and, as such, I respectfully request that this appeal be allowed.
 
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