Tyres aren't ditch finders bad drivers are!

[jej_knowles]

Did you ever question why BMW put the same/similar brand premium/UHP tyres on a 116i as they do on a 335i M Sport? Or why VW will fit premium brand tyres to a VW UP as well as a Golf R?

By your reasoning (especially with regards to your Aygo/M3 example) they could just fit linglong tyres to the 116i / UP and just tell people to drive more within the cars capability....

Not really? By my reasoning they could fit linglong Tyres as standard and not tell people to drive more within the cars capability because that's what you do with every vehicle you drive.. You feel for the limits of grip before you exceed them.

 

[Jono8]

Not really? By my reasoning they could fit linglong Tyres

But they don't because they know that premium tyres will increase the control, grip, and safety of their vehicles.

You seem to be solely focused on cornering speed whilst forgetting the biggest factor that differentiates good tyres and bad tyres; stopping distances and the ability to cope with standing water.

 

[jej_knowles]

Well done you are correct and you've totally missed the point of the thread which was nothing to do with whether high performance tyres are better than budget brands as that is a given fact backed up with numerous tests and results. My point was very focused on the the term "ditch finder" and how silly it would be to blame the Tyres after landing yourself in a ditch. Please someone! Throughout this thread I've had maybe 2-3 people see the point I was making and everyone else has argued a completely different point about stopping distances and premium brand Tyres being better than budget tyres. Hello? We all know that.. That was never my argument!

 

[Jono8]

Well done you are correct and you've totally missed the point of the thread which was nothing to do with whether high performance tyres are better than budget brands as that is a given fact backed up with numerous tests and results. My point was very focused on the the term "ditch finder" and how silly it would be to blame the Tyres after landing yourself in a ditch. Please someone! Throughout this thread I've had maybe 2-3 people see the point I was making and everyone else has argued a completely different point about stopping distances and premium brand Tyres being better than budget tyres. Hello? We all know that.. That was never my argument!

I think you are taking the term 'ditch finder' too literally then, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread....

 

[Dr Who]

I get the point and I haven't done an emergency stop in my Car for the best part of 15 years, mainly because I leave decent gaps and don't hoon about everywhere. One could argue that people who drive on premium tyres are overly smug and confident, but everyone has a budget and if you can drive to your budget then fine.

Sadly there are many less skilled drivers out there who fit budget tyres on recommendation from rubbish tyre fitters and haven't got a clue how poor they are compared to their previous premium standard fit tyres.

 

[mike gunnz]

I read on here all the time and there's been many many threads about tyres and many people label tyres with less grip as "ditch finders"
Well I would like to set the record straight. When you jump in a car you drive it gently and build up confidence in the grip available by building up corner speed etc until you feel the point at which the Tyres start to break grip and you remember this and drive the car within that limit.
You would have to be an idiot to jump in a new car or your old car with new Tyres on it and drive it into corners hard without re-learning the level of grip available!
Hence my statement Tyres aren't ditch finders BAD DRIVERS ARE DITCH FINDERS.

I agree with you OP, if that makes you feel better

I was also flamed for making a similar point a while back. It's not a point that will gain much traction on this particular car enthusiast forum though.

I find the catastrophising and hyperbole used by some contributors in this thread in order to make their point rather unhelpful.

Mr & Mrs Average in all likelihood do not buy UHP tyres, yet they don't mow down children in significant numbers, nor are they crashing into tractors on blind bends, nor are they aquaplaning and ending up in the central reservation or spinning out of control on roundabouts.

Most people drive sensibly, legally and within their own limits. Does mum of three need F1A2s to complete the daily school run. Do I need F1A2's on my weekly jaunt up and down the motorway? How you answer depends entirley on your standpoint but it doesn't make you wrong or right. You can argue it cogently either way.

The vast majority of the driving public go about their daily lives driving sensibly, observing the highway code, showing consideration for other drivers and they somehow surviving the experience intact.

Yes, there will always be a minority of stupid drivers who are a liability on the roads irrespective of the conditions, the car they drive or the quality of the tyres on each axle.

Yes, there will also be sensible drivers who make uncharacteristic errors of judgement and cause/are involved in accidents.

If your budget allows there's nothing wrong with purchasing UHP rubber, similarly I don't demonise people for buying budgets or mid range tyres if they so choose. Just buy the best you can afford.

Drive sensibly and within limits and you'll probably be fine irrespective of what tyres you have AS LONG AS THEY'RE LEGAL. Of course there is always the probability of exogenous factors (tractors, diesel spillage, standing water, children etc etc etc). How you quantify those risks is a personal decision based on individual preference.

I present no evidence to back my assertion but overall I lean towards the sentiment that it's driver error that leads to 'most' accidents irrespective of the tyre rather than the quality of the tyre itself.

That's not to say that tyres aren't a factor though.

Flame on!

 

[Housey]

Sorry guys i apologise if i was a little ott and you felt my frustration was undeserved but the thread has descended into little more than snobbish remarks about personal tyre choice and ridicule for claims i never made.
thanks to housey for the support dude i obviously talk utter nonsense all the time and will remember that in future i should keep my thoughts to myself..... yours sincerely jk (fully qualified bmw main dealer technician 5yrs vw technician 4yrs)

I actually said in my very first post there was validity in the point you were trying to make, you just made it badly and crassly with much ranting and implied in your first post that bad tyres are not a real consideration on the ability of a car, which you have since refuted, sensibly. Road driving is all about driving within limits and it is true that most accidents are probably down to people not doing so. However, using my diesel example previously made, sometimes the kit DOES have a priority over the driver and better kit will protect you better. So ditch finders will have you in a ditch sooner in SOME circumstances. It isn't tyre snobbery, it suggests you are tired of dealing with BMW owners or your perception of them more than anything I'd suggest with many of them question for the 'ultimate experience' perhaps?

I would also suggest few if any new tyres are dangerous these days, but like different BMW's perform differently, brake better, go quicker, corner which higher lateral G have more advanced systems and simply do stuff better than others, tyres are the same. We can all drive with ABS adding an umbrella of safety over a non ABS car, or some of us can cadence brake and have had to do so in years gone by, ironically in one particular instance due to diesel when all around me crashed and I didn't because I reacted better and could feel wheels locking and dealt with it. I had left more than 2 seconds of space was well under the limit.....which still wasn't enough as it turns out because a bus had just dumped diesel all over a road, both sides JUST as I arrived. 3 cars crashed, 2 into said bus in front of me.

To be clear driving outside of the limits your car will cause you pain at some point but also tyres with less performance MIGHT show themselves at some point and the driver will have zero impact on that. I get tired of oil snobbery, like a BMW bloke who gave me the wrong Castrol oil to put in my E46 M3, "won't matter I believe, as long as it's Castrol it's fine.". I assume you've been to a different school to him?

 

[Jono8]

I was also flamed for making a similar point a while back. It's not a point that will gain much traction on this particular car enthusiast forum though.

I see what you did there.

 

[Jono8]

I actually said in my very first post there was validity in the point you were trying to make, you just made it badly and crassly with much ranting and implied in your first post that bad tyres are not a real consideration on the ability of a car, which you have since refuted, sensibly. Road driving is all about driving within limits and it is true that most accidents are probably down to people not doing so. However, using my diesel example previously made, sometimes the kit DOES have a priority over the driver and better kit will protect you better. So ditch finders will have you in a ditch sooner in SOME circumstances. It isn't tyre snobbery, it suggests you are tired of dealing with BMW owners or your perception of them more than anything I'd suggest with many of them question for the 'ultimate experience' perhaps?

I would also suggest few if any new tyres are dangerous these days, but like different BMW's perform differently, brake better, go quicker, corner which higher lateral G have more advanced systems and simply do stuff better than others, tyres are the same. We can all drive with ABS adding an umbrella of safety over a non ABS car, or some of us can cadence brake and have had to do so in years gone by, ironically in one particular instance due to diesel when all around me crashed and I didn't because I reacted better and could feel wheels locking and dealt with it. I had left more than 2 seconds of space was well under the limit.....which still wasn't enough as it turns out because a bus had just dumped diesel all over a road, both sides JUST as I arrived. 3 cars crashed, 2 into said bus in front of me.

To be clear driving outside of the limits your car will cause you pain at some point but also tyres with less performance MIGHT show themselves at some point and the driver will have zero impact on that. I get tired of oil snobbery, like a BMW bloke who gave me the wrong Castrol oil to put in my E46 M3, "won't matter I believe, as long as it's Castrol it's fine.". I assume you've been to a different school to him?

Indeed.

The most hilarious contradiction that i often come across is someone singing the praises of how safe their new car is (ncap rating, amount of airbags e.t.c) and then looking down at their wheels and seeing that they have wan-li's fitted.....

I think that what the OP needs to understand is that you absolutely are compromising, to a degree, your safety when you choose to save £20 a corner and get cheaper and worse performing tyres. There will be some situations and circumstance beyond your control where you will be at less risk of an accident if you had premium tyres on your car rather than budget ones.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

Isn't "ditchfinder" a reference to the old Avon Speedmaster motorcycle tyres which matched a triangular front tyre profile with a very square rear tyre profile.

I remember this combination being very skittish when crossing over-banding and lethal on wet white lines on my old RD200.

I've always treated the purchase of tyres for any vehicle using the same rules as purchasing motorcycle clothing and helmets : buy the most capable and highest quality items I can afford.

 

[abbotsmike]

Well done you are correct and you've totally missed the point of the thread which was nothing to do with whether high performance tyres are better than budget brands as that is a given fact backed up with numerous tests and results. My point was very focused on the the term "ditch finder" and how silly it would be to blame the Tyres after landing yourself in a ditch. Please someone! Throughout this thread I've had maybe 2-3 people see the point I was making and everyone else has argued a completely different point about stopping distances and premium brand Tyres being better than budget tyres. Hello? We all know that.. That was never my argument!

I think you've missed your own point as well actually. I have never EVER heard anyone blame their tyres for finding the ditch they landed in. In fact, I don't think I've ever heard anyone blame their tyres for any accident.

Ditch finder is just an adjective used to group together crap tyres. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't take it so seriously maybe?

I do think you are just trolling, because the rest of the world doesn't actually look at the term 'ditch finder' as anything other than a descriptive term.