London set to ban older cars.

You're telling me - a blanket ban on Pre-2014 diesels seems a bit weird, as there are plenty of those doing <100g/km (currently exempt from congestion charge).

Well you could make the rules hugely complicated and so has no pitfalls, but that never happens, regardless of the area.

Why not ban ALL diesels then, rather than just target people who can't afford a new car every year.

Personal and economic costs, its hardly every year is it. If it comes in, in 2020 you'll need a 6 year old diesel of 15year old petrol.
 
Fortunately my gas guzzling V6-soon-to-be-decatted is 2006 registered :cool:

In other interesting news, they've done a report and the congestion has increased in central London in and around the congestion charging zone - just proving that the CC zone is a pile of rubbish.

Mine's 2002 :(
Chances of me still having it in 6 years' time though are definitely close to zero.

Anyway, just because congestion has increased doesn't mean the charging zone has been useless (dislike it though I do) since none of us know what the congestion would be like if it hadn't been introduced; we can't just compare traffic levels in 2004 or whenever it was started with traffic levels today! Certainly not without looking at trends for other major cities without charging, and making lots of assumptions, anyway.
 
Here's a mad idea, maybe if I wasn't paying £1.37 for a litre of diesel, maybe I could afford a greener car.

Except that for many people, if they weren't paying £1.37/litre, they could afford a less efficient car! :p
Lowering fuel prices is not going to encourage people to buy greener cars.

Why not ban ALL diesels then, rather than just target people who can't afford a new car every year.

That's kinda what they are doing - banning ALL diesels that emit high levels of NOx (up to 0.18g/km in Euro 5 spec vs up to 0.08g/km in Euro 6 spec), based on the premise that Euro 6 comes into force in 2014. However I appreciate that some cars pre-2014 may already be meeting Euro 6 spec.

Incidentally, the NOx target for petrols was set at 0.08g/km for Euro 4 back in 2005, so the same applies here.
 
It would be nice for there to be fewer diesels spewing out cancer. Good on Nissan for opting for a petrol engine in their new taxi.
 
Is there a magic barrier that stops pollution from outside the zone entering it?

And I do like the governments opinion that pollution can be solved with money.

If your going to ban cars ban all of them. Picking arbitrary years as cut offs doesn't solve the problem and just angers people. So under this scheme an 80g/km Polo from 2013 would be banned from the centre, but a 300g/km Range Rover Diesel from 2015 would be allowed in for a fee? Way to go on the environment saving there! :rolleyes:

Well the 2015 Range Rover even with a TDV8 will give 253g/km but as we are talking pollution in you can expect that product to be a TDV6 with urea /Adblue to ensure it meets EU6 requirement for NOx unlike the Polo.

Zone is ANPR.
 
Mine's 2002 :(
Chances of me still having it in 6 years' time though are definitely close to zero.

Anyway, just because congestion has increased doesn't mean the charging zone has been useless (dislike it though I do) since none of us know what the congestion would be like if it hadn't been introduced; we can't just compare traffic levels in 2004 or whenever it was started with traffic levels today! Certainly not without looking at trends for other major cities without charging, and making lots of assumptions, anyway.

I drove through London for 5-6 years before it was introduced, and then after it was introduced. Initially it had very little impact as it was only £5, as it rose to £10 it had a bit more of an effect, but then depending on the time of day it got progressively worse - and became just as bad when the hours finished.

Driving through it over the last couple of years, it was as it was back in early 2000s. As in you couldn't tell there was a charge.

The traffic in London is bad and will always be bad. It is an old city without the roads to cope with HGVs, huge double decker buses which have to interact with cars and cyclists.

If they REALLY wanted to make an impact, is to pedestrianise it, and only allow residents access to their car parking areas.

They won't do that though.
 
But his point remains, to only be back to where it was is a pretty good achievement, seeing as every other city has got massively worse. Imagine what the traffic would be if they never introduced it and how bad the air pollution would be.
 
According to Emission Analytics, a company that produces vehicle monitoring equipment, although auto manufacturers have introduced a number of engine modifications to meet NOx emission standards, real-world emissions fail to match the levels as measure in the official tests. A study co-conducted with Imperial College London, real-world Euro 5 light-duty diesels exceed the current Euro 5 standard threefold in most instances.

No way! Next up they'll be telling us that real world fuel consumption doesn't match the EU published MPG either!

You're telling me - a blanket ban on Pre-2014 diesels seems a bit weird, as there are plenty of those doing <100g/km (currently exempt from congestion charge).
CO2 doesn't matter. It's what we exhale. And trees inhale it.
NOx and particulates is the actual bad stuff. Which is why the obsession with taxation on CO2 has been such a bad thing (thanks Gordon!). All the company car tax & standard road tax focusing on CO2 has pushed people into diesels... which then emit loads of NOx and particulates, which is the actual bad stuff :rolleyes:.


I'd be intrigued if anyone's got any stats on what would happen to Air Quality/Emissions etc if lots of haulage went back to using the railways instead of diesel HGVs on the roads?
 
But his point remains, to only be back to where it was is a pretty good achievement, seeing as every other city has got massively worse. Imagine what the traffic would be if they never introduced it and how bad the air pollution would be.

No different really as car tech is improving - and they introduced the LEZ around London anyway.

congestion isn't a problem in London - it's London, it's busy. The problem with the CC is that you can no longer do your rat runs and dart in and out of al the side streets to miss the traffic as it costs you money to do it.

The CC is just money generation - end of. Then you have councils like WCC who have the most abhorrent parking regulations known to civilisation.

It's easy money. If they REALLY cared about the environment and so on, they'd blanket ban all vehicles bar electric/hybrid ones.

I no longer drive into central London because I get free transport in London, so it doesn't make sense - though there are exceptions - besides I quite enjoy cruising around the Thames and through some of the iconic parts of London. However, I do drive around London (suburbs/non central) as it is impossible to get about otherwise.

I'm a fan of sustainability and environment, but fixing the small fry is such a waste of energy (!).
 
I'd be intrigued if anyone's got any stats on what would happen to Air Quality/Emissions etc if lots of haulage went back to using the railways instead of diesel HGVs on the roads?

I'm a HUGE fan of this idea - it's one of the things that people forget especially with things like HS2 - if they can improve the rail infrastructure around the UK, all the freight that can be sent at night at high speed and then distributed by smaller vans/trucks which are more fuel efficient it would make a significant difference. HGVs in London are ridiculous.

I personally would love to see more electric single decker buses in London - they're smaller, more nimble, and would probably cause less congestion - just have a few more running than those huge double deckers that are seldom full.
 
You cant blanket ban from the start. Can you imagine the disruption to the economy. It has to be done in stages to balance several different needs.
 
I'm a HUGE fan of this idea - it's one of the things that people forget especially with things like HS2 - if they can improve the rail infrastructure around the UK, all the freight that can be sent at night at high speed and then distributed by smaller vans/trucks which are more fuel efficient it would make a significant difference. HGVs in London are ridiculous.

I personally would love to see more electric single decker buses in London - they're smaller, more nimble, and would probably cause less congestion - just have a few more running than those huge double deckers that are seldom full.

You can't put frieght on the rails unless your happy to build new massive distribution centers all over the country and then build the tracks to them. Then you need vehicles to deliver the stuff. One 44 ton artic can take the load of up 30 transit vans, or 15x 7.5 ton. So all those vehicles need to be constructed, fueled, and need a driver to. An average tesco can have 6 or 7 trucks a day, you really think you could afford to eat if they had to send 200+ transit vans a day??

Also, a single decker bus is no shorter and no more nimble than a double, and the weight/fuel differance us neglible to. The doubles are always full during rush hour, you really think TFL will park them up the rest of day idle then buy 2nd fleet to run quiet times of day???
 
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You can't put frieght on the rails unless your happy to build new massive distribution centers all over the country and then build the tracks to them. Then you need vehicles to deliver the stuff. One 44 ton artic can take the load of up 30 transit vans, or 15x 7.5 ton. So all those vehicles need to be constructed, fueled, and need a driver to. An average tesco can have 6 or 7 trucks a day, you really think you could afford to eat if they had to send 200+ transit vans a day??

It works in other cities around the world where they have the infrastructure for it. It's just such a big giant leap to take that no one is willing to do it. We don't have the depots, or the structure in place to enable this sort of behaviour.

Just imagine how less congested London or cities would be without large haulier vehicles clogging up the streets?

What's wrong with constructing vans and driving them? Sure it's an expense, but then you could offset that with the smaller fleet of HGVs, and better economic model of your business if you're able to be more efficient. I'm also not a fan of massive supermarkets - I understand that they work, and are convenient, but that's another debate. :)

The costs do not have to be higher - just because this is how we do things now, it doesn't mean that it is the right way.

How about as a compromise, freight trains which carry 100x that of 1 HGV, up and down the country for the major long hauls, and then your HGVs for the trip from the train depot to its onward journey? You could have your fleet of HGVs.

What I'm getting at, is if you think about it like a comms network - if you increase the main pipe, you can shift a lot more data - you may have to shuttle more of that data more times on the older infrastructure, but if your remove that old infrastructure and put in place a more efficient and regular way of transmitting data you get no delays. It's a bold vision I know - and unlikely to ever happen, but that's one of the ways I'd see one of the THOUSANDS of potential solutions of city congestion.

Also, a single decker bus is no shorter and no more nimble than a double, and the weight/fuel differance us neglible to. The doubles are always full during rush hour, you really think TFL will park them up the rest of day idle then buy 2nd fleet to run quiet times of day???

Well it is easier to power a single decker bus with hybrid tech as they need less power. I know the double decker buses are iconic and so on, but they were built in a time where there were less cars, and people couldn't afford to drive - now there are too many cars on the road and they add to the congestion. So either we need more efficient and more regular buses or less cars in London.

I use a bus daily and they are seldom full - the tube on the other hand....

In the small side streets of London they generally use single decker buses, as they are more manoeuvrable and smaller. Just like the smaller vans - yes you may need more of them, but they can get to their destination quicker, and go onto other jobs. If you used 15 hybrid / electrical 7.5T vehicles I dare say the emissions and efficiency would be better than a sub 10mpg HGV. Furthermore, when unloading they'd need less time, less space, and would cost businesses less as there would be no CC charge applicable.

I know it's a little pie in the sky, but I don't think the current way things are is sustainable or efficient. I was at a TfL innovation conference last week, and there are a lot of plans on how to improve traffic flow and efficiencies in London - however that's how I know that the CC hasn't had a positive impact on the traffic density.

I'm not saying you're wrong - I'm merely postulating that alternatives can potentially help. These are just ideas - I'm not trying to defend them really but from my exposure to city planning and transport infrastructure it just seems to fit better. However, I'm a day dreamer. :)
 
You really think that having 30 vehicles to replace 1 will ease congestion??? Electric is out as an average distribution vehicle can easily run 3 or 4 hundred miles a day. You really need to understand how the logistics industry works in this country. You think we drive artics for fun round central London?? With the capacity of a van you couldnt even keep an average fast food restaurant stocked for day. Trunking, the kind of routes you want putting on rails already runs almost entirely at night, and would have a negligible impact on city centre traffic. Trucks are in towns because they need to be.
Again, single decker buses use the same chassis, engine, wheels as a double decker, weigh almost the same, and fuel saving are negligible compared to buying and running more smaller vehicles, beleive me, people smarter than you or I have added it up. Lastly, we cant have cleaner hybrid HGV's. The technology is there, but unless the EU change the rules to let us have longer and heavier vehicles then we can not fit the technology needed.
 
I'm going to scare you by saying I used to work in logistics ;) Sorry.

I don't see using the current vehicles the way we have them now as future looking - it's a very myopic view to think all we need is bigger and larger - it's the wrong approach in my opinion. I'd rather have a fleet of ninjas than a handful of juggernaughts.

Taking London as an example, it's just too congested, and the structure is not fit for such logistical behaviour, we need to change how we do things. Does that mean removing large supermarkets from the city centre? Perhaps. Does that mean restricted certain vehicles from central London? perhaps.

There are a huge number of possibilities - none of which are insurmountable, all of which require a leap of faith, and all of which are completely bonkers but without sparking these debates and ideas we are just trying to reinvent the wheel. The process of being innovative is to exploit current technologies and processes to apply them to new ideas, new methodologies and frameworks - if you just add more big HGVs and more deliveries - it's just like trying to shove a square peg into a round hole, put enough momentum and you'll shove it in there, but it won't be a good fit, and it'll leak - my analogy being that by not changing the peg, or the hole, money will leak through the gaps of the processes which haven't been refined or improved.

I want to see new ideas rather than the same old ones re-hashed. It works in Germany and in France (though they have bigger high streets - the distribution network in the smaller streets is limited to smaller vans - and they exploit the railroad and other methods of transportation to ease congestion - it works).
 
some pretty good points raised. london, from talk in here, reminds me of the latest simcity game :p if you don't plan your roads and such to accommodate for expansion/upgrading in the late game then you're pretty much screwed xD have to grab all the cash you can, level the city and start again... but with a fat wad of cash in your pocket ;) not sure if this could be done with london though :p local might have something to say xD that and even when you do put it in there there's always air pollution, always traffic jams, always rammed full and also completely empty busses..... hummm.... maybe simcity wasn't that broken after all.. xD be interesting if you could make exclusion zones in simcity so you have park and rides but you can only get public transport past certain points. :p
 
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