Dual Graphics dud: Intel clobbers AMD’s A10-7850K in budget gaming

LtMatt · 14 Mar 2014 at 09:22

MjFrosty said:
I would have thought you would have been all for it. Cheaper, more efficient and stellar performance.

Never mind, least you don't have to choose between the two in question

I know very little about the hardware (AMD's APU's) in question so its of no interest to me. I've contacted Thracks/Joel about the article though to see what the reply is and what's being done about it and if its just a bug which can be rectified. Good on Joel though for bringing it out, same as he did with the GameWorks article. If the end result is Amd fix the problem (rather than ignore it/him) then it will only benefit the end users. I like this type of journalism.

Gregster · 14 Mar 2014 at 09:25

CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
So one article on one CPU,and now you make a general statement like that?? Hilarious! So out of interest what is your experience of CPUs under £100?

Just asking.

If you have a problem with me, you can take it to email. I commented on the OP and haven't read the article (I was at work at the time) and took it from that. As for budget CPU's, I have built so many different systems over the years and know full well what a budget system is capable of.

Your posting recently is coming across as bitter for some reason?

--------------------

@ Frosty and Matt, that Batman Arkham Origins thread was comedy, as even at the time, I was told by Joel that something was wrong with my system because Joel got far more fps than me but seems there is something wrong with all our systems (nVidia owners), as it took a K|ngp|n card with a massive overclock to beat Kaap, so I can't see how nVidia isn't doing the AMD guys proud in that game. Anyways, that isn't for this thread and probably better to chat about that in that particular thread

Silent_Scone · 14 Mar 2014 at 09:28

LtMatt said:
I know very little about the hardware (AMD's APU's) in question so its of no interest to me. I've contacted Thracks/Joel about the article though to see what the reply is and what's being done about it and if its just a bug which can be rectified. Good on Joel though for bringing it out, same as he did with the GameWorks article. If the end result is Amd fix the problem (rather than ignore it/him) then it will only benefit the end users. I like this type of journalism.

Mantle’s performance results reflect its early status. It simply doesn’t work with the R7 250 and A10-7850K, and we tried both the Catalyst 14.1 and Catalyst 14.2 drivers.

He's being at least fair with Mantles results.

LtMatt · 14 Mar 2014 at 09:31

Gregster said:
@ Frosty and Matt, that Batman Arkham Origins thread was comedy, as even at the time, I was told by Joel that something was wrong with my system because Joel got far more fps than me but seems there is something wrong with all our systems (nVidia owners), as it took a K|ngp|n card with a massive overclock to beat Kaap, so I can't see how nVidia isn't doing the AMD guys proud in that game. Anyways, that isn't for this thread and probably better to chat about that in that particular thread

If you disable AA then a 770 ends up beating a 290X though, that was the problem, amongst other things like being unable to provide their own performance optimizations due to the closed libraries of GameWorks. Only with x8AA was AMD able to overcome that by brute force. Most people won't be playing with x8AA, they will be using the small performance hit of FXAA with much lesser low end gpu's. Its never right that amd should be unable to provide performance optimizations and to have them rejected is cause for concern. Just the other day Greg you said you would not get a game if AMD were the ones responsible for Nvidia performance optimizations. Well that's what happens with all GW titles because of the closed libraries. As you say though, no point getting into it all again as we'll all end up going round in circles.

MjFrosty said:
He's being at least fair with Mantles results.

Joel is fair. He was just as fair with the GameWorks article.

There is not a driver out yet that provides support for Mantle with those cards though, as he found in testing.

eyetrip · 14 Mar 2014 at 09:32

LtMatt said:
I know very little about the hardware (AMD's APU's) in question so its of no interest to me. I've contacted Thracks/Joel about the article though to see what the reply is and what's being done about it and if its just a bug which can be rectified. Good on Joel though for bringing it out, same as he did with the GameWorks article. If the end result is Amd fix the problem (rather than ignore it/him) then it will only benefit the end users. I like this type of journalism.

I got to ask, do you work in the GPU industry in some manner, whether it be for one of the tech companies or a tech site/publication, etc?

LtMatt · 14 Mar 2014 at 09:34

eyetrip said:
I got to ask, do you work in the GPU industry in some manner, whether it be for one of the tech companies or a tech site/publication, etc?

Lol if i do im not getting paid enough!!

Gregster · 14 Mar 2014 at 09:36

LtMatt said:
If you disable AA then a 770 ends up beating a 290X though, that was the problem, amongst other things like being unable to provide their own performance optimizations due to the closed libraries of GameWorks. Only with x8AA was AMD able to overcome that by brute force. Most people won't be playing with x8AA, they will be using the small performance hit of FXAA with much lesser low end gpu's. Its never right that amd should be unable to provide performance optimizations and to have them rejected is cause for concern. Just the other day Greg you said you would not get a game if AMD were the ones responsible for Nvidia performance optimizations. Well that's what happens with all GW titles because of the closed libraries. As you say though, no point getting into it all again as we'll all end up going round in circles.

Joel is fair. He was just as fair with the GameWorks article.

There is not a driver out yet that provides support for Mantle with those cards though, as he found in testing.

I like Joel and he does report what he finds, so fair play to him. It just strikes me as funny when I can beat AMD cards in other games with no problems but the damned nVidia sponsored B:AO, I can't

As for Mantle, If AMD were in charge of optimising for nVidia cards, I won't be playing games with Mantle, as they wouldn't bloody work

LtMatt · 14 Mar 2014 at 09:38

Gregster said:
I like Joel and he does report what he finds, so fair play to him. It just strikes me as funny when I can beat AMD cards in other games with no problems but the damned nVidia sponsored B:AO, I can't

As for Mantle, If AMD were in charge of optimising for nVidia cards, I won't be playing games with Mantle, as they wouldn't bloody work

It also strikes me as extremely worrying when using 'FXAA only' a mid range gpu can beat out a high end gpu. It makes you wonder how thats possible.

Rusty0611 · 14 Mar 2014 at 09:44

Dodgy drivers

LtMatt · 14 Mar 2014 at 09:45

Rusty0611 said:
Dodgy drivers

I heard Peterborough is full of em. :eek:

Gregster · 14 Mar 2014 at 09:47

LtMatt said:
It also strikes me as extremely worrying when using 'FXAA only' a mid range gpu can beat out a high end gpu. It makes you wonder how thats possible.

I wonder which team came up with FXAA? Ohhh, that would be nVidia

Strange how some forms of AA work better on certain vendors hardware and not so well on the others....

LtMatt · 14 Mar 2014 at 09:48

Gregster said:
I wonder which team came up with FXAA? Ohhh, that would be nVidia Strange how some forms of AA work better on certain vendors hardware and not so well on the others....

FXAA performance hit is 1fps in every non GameWorks title.

Rusty0611 · 14 Mar 2014 at 09:49

LtMatt said:
I heard Peterborough is full of em.

Tone is one of them. Luckily we shipped him out to the countryside

LtMatt · 14 Mar 2014 at 09:50

Rusty0611 said:
Tone is one of them. Luckily we shipped him out to the countryside

Silent_Scone · 14 Mar 2014 at 10:31

LtMatt said:
If you disable AA then a 770 ends up beating a 290X though, that was the problem, amongst other things like being unable to provide their own performance optimizations due to the closed libraries of GameWorks. Only with x8AA was AMD able to overcome that by brute force. Most people won't be playing with x8AA, they will be using the small performance hit of FXAA with much lesser low end gpu's. Its never right that amd should be unable to provide performance optimizations and to have them rejected is cause for concern. Just the other day Greg you said you would not get a game if AMD were the ones responsible for Nvidia performance optimizations. Well that's what happens with all GW titles because of the closed libraries. As you say though, no point getting into it all again as we'll all end up going round in circles.

Joel is fair. He was just as fair with the GameWorks article.

There is not a driver out yet that provides support for Mantle with those cards though, as he found in testing.

Considering no similar problems occurred from other GameWorks titles it's fairly safe to assume it was an issue with WB, the same Studio who are refusing to even patch the remaining issues with B:AO, as they'd rather forget it

.

It's no different from you moaning about HBAO performance in Splinter Cell, which wasn't even part of GameWorks, saying performance was off - but using the 'premature driver card' is fine in other circumstances. In other words, when it suits you?

Soz

LtMatt · 14 Mar 2014 at 10:39

MjFrosty said:
Considering no similar problems occurred from other GameWorks titles it's fairly safe to assume it was an issue with WB, the same Studio who are refusing to even patch the remaining issues with B:AO, as they'd rather forget it .

It's no different from you moaning about HBAO performance in Splinter Cell, which wasn't even part of GameWorks, saying performance was off - but using the 'premature driver card' is fine in other circumstances. In other words, when it suits you?

Soz

To answer this question, I’ve spent several weeks testing Arkham Origins, Assassin’s Creed IV, and Splinter Cell: Blacklist. Blacklist appears to only use GameWorks libraries for its HBAO+ implementation, and early benchmarks of this last game showed a distinct advantage for Nvidia hardware when running in that mode.

Looks like Joel has updated the article (having heard back from Nvidia) and Nvidia have finally fessed up. Lol this is gold!!

Nvidia said:
Update (1/3/2014): According to Nvidia, developers can, under certain licensing circumstances, gain access to (and optimize) the GameWorks code, but cannot share that code with AMD for optimization purposes. While we apologize for the error, the net impact remains substantially identical. Game developers are not driver authors and much of the performance optimization for any given title is handled by rapid-fire beta driver releases from AMD or Nvidia in the weeks immediately following a title’s launch. When developers do patch GPU performance directly, it’s often after working with AMD or Nvidia to create the relevant code paths.

Source
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...surps-power-from-developers-end-users-and-amd

So all that crap Joel and i took and Nvidia finally own up. AMD unable to provide their own performance optimizations in THEIR OWN DRIVERS when the game uses GameWorks code.

Silent_Scone · 14 Mar 2014 at 10:47

LMAO. We already knew the libraries weren't accessible to AMD you dingle-berry.

Gregster · 14 Mar 2014 at 10:50

No different to DX/Mantle as I understand it and maybe better to post in that thread you created Matt, as I am happy to discuss it

LtMatt · 14 Mar 2014 at 10:53

No matter how you dress it up, it stinks. One side able to optimize, the other not. Thank god not many titles use GameWorks. If ever there is a reason for any respected developer not to use GameWorks code, this is it. If AMD/Mantle ever stopped Nvidia from providing performance optimizations for DX11 then im sure you would be equally as concerned. That's my final say on the matter. Thanks to Frosty for making me check the article again though. Without his prompting i would've missed the Nvidia confession. Its funny because in the other GW thread he kept saying that he needed proof that AMD were not able to optimize their own drivers when using GameWorks code. Well now we have it from the horses mouth that its not possible.

Silent_Scone · 14 Mar 2014 at 11:08

You're such a White Knight

.

AMD know full well they can't optimise for GameWorks, doesn't mean driver submissions have to be rejected. What the hell were AMD submitting if they've never seen the libs before anyway. Like the whole FreeSync "look at what we can do with Laptops on DP1.3" i.e zero relevance to the current market, they're good at one thing - stirring the hornets nest when they get out-shined. Something NV have never really risen to, ever. I don't agree with a lot of Nvdias closed door policies, but as a consumer in most instances, it doesn't really matter as my decision reflects the best performance and overall package at the time of purchase. If you don't like it, don't play it which is exactly what you're doing and staying loyal till comes a time you really want to play something under Nvidia scheming.

Mantle being a completely different kettle though isn't it Matt? An entire programming interface, currently only locked into GNC cards. 'ridiculing' the competition. Friendly consumerism

.

Your lack of input in the black screen issue thread speaks a thousand words TBH. I'm done with the bickering though, don't worry