Aborted Babies incinerated to heat Hospital!!

[dowie]

At what point is a foetus alive? This is something that is not adequately discussed in my opinion.

Its alive from day 1... it might not be sentient, it might just be a very small developing organism but its still alive. You've then got a gradual process by which it becomes more and more like a baby... and a stage where it could be born prematurely and still survive... Other than the act of actually giving birth there is no magic line in the sand where you cross a specific point and it magically becomes a baby...

To refute Dowie's earlier point about having a **** causing millions of death, this is not the same. No amount of sperm or eggs on their own is going to result in pregnancy and thus there is no chance of a human being.

Not on their own but a small sack of cells killed off in a chemical abortion or with a morning after pill isn't that much different. I think at later stages abortion does become very dubious but at early stages it.

A woman gets rid of an egg when she had a period... if one sperm has entered and its divided a few times then is it massively different? I really don't think its particularly sacred at that point... there is a grey area in between that point and giving birth where a line should be drawn rather arbitrarily but its really a bit of a grey earlier. Ideally abortions should be early stage and easily available to any woman who wants one.

Some have suggested it even cuts crime:

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf

 

[Minstadave]

the issue is ethical, should they be treated like this? in another note, would you put your loved ones to be burned once they die to heat a similar facility? after all they are waste too, also a hazardous one.

I for one, dont know. I find it harsh to burn unborn babies for energy recovery, it sounds bad and i am not sure its ethical too.

Most of these aren't "loved ones" though are they?

And they're not burnt for energy recovery, they're burnt because they're medical waste and that is the appropriate way off disposing of medical waste. It's neither here nor there that some hospital incinerators use the heat they generate for useful purposes. Would it be better if they burnt the foetuses but turned off the heat reclamation? No. Does it sell more papers if they make a meal of it? Indeed.

 

[Goberpiles316]

Whats all this about, its medical waste which has to be disposed of in a certain way, what was the alternative 15,500 state paid funerals get a grip people whats next start having funerals when someone has a limb removed!

 

[murah]

They class as medical waste, they were never born to begin with. They are disposed of in the safest manner, stop crying.

 

[IronWarrior]

Don't have a problem with this as well.

Has to be disposed and being disposed while producing something useful sounds like a good idea.

 

[Angilion]

the issue is ethical, should they be treated like this? in another note, would you put your loved ones to be burned once they die to heat a similar facility? after all they are waste too, also a hazardous one.

I wouldn't put my loved ones to be burned at all.

Their corpses are a different matter, though. They're not my loved ones. The people aren't there any more. I'd do that. I hope it's done with my corpse after anything else useful has been done with it. Take out any bits that can be re-used, then do anything useful with what's left (research or whatever). If there's anything left that can't be used, I'm all for reducing the amount of energy used to safely dispose of it.

I for one, dont know. I find it harsh to burn unborn babies for energy recovery, it sounds bad and i am not sure its ethical too.

It does sound harsh, but that's an emotional response. It could equally be regarded as unethical to simply waste the heat.

 

[Angilion]

it was ten months ago.

No wouldn't press the button as they're alive and functioning human beings that with the correct medication will live long healthy lives.

a small cluster of cells isn't.

why do you think killing an adult because they have a disease is the same as aborting a foetus?

So would you still press the button?

It's not at all accurate to call a foetus "a small cluster of cells".

People on both sides of the argument very often misrepresent things to suit their own position.

 

[Tuppy_Glossop]

It's not at all accurate to call a foetus "a small cluster of cells".

People on both sides of the argument very often misrepresent things to suit their own position.

Anyone who understands the size of the universe could easily describe an adult human as a small cluster of cells. For that is truly all we are.

 

[Tefal]

It's not at all accurate to call a foetus "a small cluster of cells".

People on both sides of the argument very often misrepresent things to suit their own position.

rob counts the second it implants into the wall as his cut off point so yes it's entirely accurate to refer to a small cluster of cells when debating his time limit on abortion.

I suppose embryo or zygote would have been a better word but i couldn't remember it at the time.

its usually best to read the point a person is arguing against not just their counter point, avoids these misunderstandings

 

[Angilion]

At what point is a foetus alive? This is something that is not adequately discussed in my opinion. [..]

It's irrelevant in my opinion. It's also impossible to give a conclusive answer without defining "alive", which is surprisingly difficult when you get down to details.

If you're asking at what point a person becomes a person, that's a question nobody knows the answer to.

My position is based on what I consider to be the basis of morality - the course of least harm. For that reason, I'm definitely in favour of abortion on demand up to 20 weeks. After that point, I'm not sure which is the course of least harm but I lean towards abortion on demand anyway. Maybe. I'm not sure. I am sure that enforced pregnancy and childbirth is a great deal of harm.

 

[Angilion]

Its alive from day 1... it might not be sentient, it might just be a very small developing organism but its still alive. You've then got a gradual process by which it becomes more and more like a baby... and a stage where it could be born prematurely and still survive... Other than the act of actually giving birth there is no magic line in the sand where you cross a specific point and it magically becomes a baby... [..]

Even that's not a completely clear line. A newborn baby isn't capable of independent survival, which is the yardstick some people are using for when killing becomes unacceptable.

 

[Angilion]

rob counts the second it implants into the wall as his cut off point so yes it's entirely accurate to refer to a small cluster of cells when debating his time limit on abortion.

I suppose embryo or zygote would have been a better word but i couldn't remember it at the time.

its usually best to read the point a person is arguing against not just their counter point, avoids these misunderstandings

It's usually best to be at least marginally accurate in stating what you're referring to. You referred to a foetus as being "a small cluster of cells", hence my reply of "It's not at all accurate to call a foetus "a small cluster of cells". You did not place a limit short enough for that description to be anywhere near accurate. Neither did the person you were replying to.

Do you think abortion should be legal only for the first few weeks at most, i.e. when a foetus could with some degree of accuracy be called "a small cluster of cells"? I bet you don't. Even then, it still wouldn't be very accurate because foetal development is very rapid. Even after a very short period of time, it's developed past the point of being a small cluster of cells. In a matter of days, it's a number of clusters of cells as various parts of the body start to develop.

It is indeed usually best to read the point a person is arguing against as well as their counter-point. Especially when you're the one making the point they're arguing against.

It's also usually best to have an internally consistent argument.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Anyone who understands the size of the universe could easily describe an adult human as a small cluster of cells. For that is truly all we are.

Amazing fact:
If you took out all the empty spaces in a human and then squashed every human that has ever been born into one space it would be around the size of a sugar cube.

 

[OhEsEcks]

Amazing fact:
If you took out all the empty spaces in a human and then squashed every human that has ever been born into one space it would be around the size of a sugar cube.

 

[koolpc]

Whatever one thinks about abortion the fact that it has been reported as to what has been going on behind closed doors concerning the little human lives that have been murdered is quite alarming.

The world is a very sick place indeed. Always has been regarding how we treat each other. Guess that won't change.

 

[semi-pro waster]

the issue is ethical, should they be treated like this? in another note, would you put your loved ones to be burned once they die to heat a similar facility? after all they are waste too, also a hazardous one.

Unless the person who died had strong feelings about how they were disposed of after death which I would try to respect then I'd have no particular issues with some sort of heat exchange being used so as not to waste all the energy used in the incineration. Although as has been noted it's pretty much the opposite of an efficient way to heat facilities but if it's going to be done anyway to not make the greatest use of the process seems a bit remiss to me.

Once I'm dead then whoever is responsible for the disposal of my remains can do whatever they want although if any of my organs can be reused I'd quite like that but if they aren't I can't possibly imagine how it will matter to me or that I'd be in any position to object. However I don't expect everyone to feel the same way so that's why I'd try to respect their wishes if they were known to me.

 

[AmyS]

Whatever one thinks about abortion the fact that it has been reported as to what has been going on behind closed doors concerning the little human lives that have been murdered is quite alarming.

The world is a very sick place indeed. Always has been regarding how we treat each other. Guess that won't change.

Murdered is a very strong word to use, and they are not ''little human lives''.

If you had a 14 year old daughter, who was, heaven forbid, dragged down an alleyway and raped by a stranger, would you be telling her she was a murderer for aborting the cluster of cells inside HER body?

 

[Minstadave]

Whatever one thinks about abortion the fact that it has been reported as to what has been going on behind closed doors concerning the little human lives that have been murdered is quite alarming.

The world is a very sick place indeed. Always has been regarding how we treat each other. Guess that won't change.

Given up on rational debate and moved on to emotional sensationalism?

 

[mattyg]

I think we should allow late term abortion.. Say 21 yrs after birth. Bet crime figures would hit the deck



Hey thread went way OT anyhow

 

[OhEsEcks]

If you had a 14 year old daughter, who was, heaven forbid, dragged down an alleyway and raped by a stranger, would you be telling her she was a murderer for aborting the cluster of cells inside HER body?

He's probably the type of person who thinks rape victims were asking for it because of what they might have or have not been wearing.