It's here - Sharia law to be enshrined in UK legal system

[The Running Man]

It is not overriding UK law though is it? It is a means of resolving disputes within the confines of the Islamic faith by arbitration. It does not mean honour killings are going to be legal. It does not mean beheading is going to be legal. It does not mean cutting the hands off thieves is going to be legal.

All it means is that the growing Muslim community in this country have a first port of call within their faith but as I have repeatedly said (which people here seem to be repeatedly ignoring), the law does not change. Sharia arbitration is simply a channel of communication and negotiation between Muslims. It is no different from any other form of arbitration (IE Beth Din). Courts will only uphold any decisions if they are legal under the laws that already exist!

Civil courts in this country are not obliged to recognise the faith or culture of those concerned. Whatever decisions are made in Sharia arbitration are not legally binding unless they comply with existing civil law.

'Faith courts' do not and cannot overrule existing civil law and they have no sway whatsoever when it comes to criminal law. What this amounts to is a mole hill that has been inflated into a mountain. Those people in uproar are equality campaigners. It is funny they choose to pick on Sharia law when actually everything they are railing against can already happen perfectly legally in UK civil law.

If I write a will I can make sure the females in my family only get half of what the the males get. I could go and arrange a will to that effect tomorrow if I so wished.

So, what really is the problem here? It seems to me the media have whipped up another frenzy over this perceived 'Islamification' of our country which is a huge exaggeration, and a a shameful distortion of the truth.

But why would they be needed at all if they already conform to law. Why the need for a specifically faith led one. In.my view its a slippery slope.

look at halal. Intended for small scale limited production. Now its the only type of meat you can get in some schools, supermarkets etc. Which is really unfortunate.

Consessions and laws are being tweaked or loaded specifically to cater for or to Muslims. Including the NHS, schools where does it stop? When does common sense and existing rules and regulations for health and safety designed for maximum benefit get trodden down due to ancient cultural issues.

It's not right.

 

[Storm3y]

look at halal. Intended for small scale limited production. Now its the only type of meat you can get in some schools, supermarkets etc. Which is really unfortunate.

That's because there is a demand for it and it's probably cheaper to source the next from a single place than have meat from multiple places. Personally the majority of the meat I eat is Halal as I eat out a lot and that is the only type of meat they serve. I also think it's a more humane way to slaughter an animal despite what the daily fail tell you.

Consessions and laws are being tweaked or loaded specifically to cater for or to Muslims. Including the NHS, schools where does it stop? When does common sense and existing rules and regulations for health and safety designed for maximum benefit get trodden down due to ancient cultural issues.

Are they? Like what?

 

[BuffetSlayer]

But why would they be needed at all if they already conform to law. Why the need for a specifically faith led one. In.my view its a slippery slope.

look at halal. Intended for small scale limited production. Now its the only type of meat you can get in some schools, supermarkets etc. Which is really unfortunate.

Consessions and laws are being tweaked or loaded specifically to cater for or to Muslims. Including the NHS, schools where does it stop? When does common sense and existing rules and regulations for health and safety designed for maximum benefit get trodden down due to ancient cultural issues.

It's not right.

You do realise the Law Society have only issued guidance, dont you?

That guidance will be to allow high street lawyers trying to settle matters under Sharia to make sure they are legal under existing civil law, and vice versa (considering that many Muslims may still be domiciled abroad but have property/financial interests in this country)

It gives guidance on the thorny issue of domicile and inheritence tax with regard to Sharia inheretence and intestacy.

Overall it is simply an aid to make sure high street lawyers operate correctly and most importantly legally.

It has absolutely nothing to do with Sharia law being given any legal status in this country.

If you want to have a look over the guidance you can find it HERE

With regard to concessions for Muslims, that is part of being an open minded multi-cultural society. To try and accept the differences of another culture and try to accomodate them where possible is nothing new and we have done it in Britain for decades. The question should not be how much will I lose from cultural diversity, but what will I gain?

This country has gained a lot of grace and understanding from cultural diversity. Our kids mix with a number of different cultures, and as the generations start to understand them better we fear each other less.

Any right minded person would not brand an entire religion as extreme, violent and dangerous based on the acts of a few. If we did that, all religions would be dead - becaue their holy books are all full of bloody murder. So why is Islam different?

I cant help feeling the 'Islamaphobia' that we see is just the product of fear. Fear of something different, and fear born of ignorance.

 

[The Running Man]

That's because there is a demand for it and it's probably cheaper to source the next from a single place than have meat from multiple places. Personally the majority of the meat I eat is Halal as I eat out a lot and that is the only type of meat they serve. I also think it's a more humane way to slaughter an animal despite what the daily fail tell you.




Are they? Like what?

Well yes it is but because muslims are inherently fussier and more vocal we all now eat halal instead of them adopting non halal. The winner in that battle was islam. It might seem like a small change to you, but one minor exemption meant for limited quantities is now thw defacto.

Your opinion is your opinion. If it was more humane why wasn't the minimum law standard set to a this method prior to the Islamic invasion? The standards were set with animal welfare in mind and then suddenly nope this is overwritten not due to new studies showing the animals feel less this way but due to a cultural invasion.


What else? NHS women and sleeves? School uniform and the wearing of a face mask/adherence to uniform policy.

Dual signage at doctors and hospitals for non punjabi speakers. Separate women's only women's services for Muslim women etc. ..

 

[Elrein]

I love a good anti-Muslim thread!

 

[The Running Man]

With regard to concessions for Muslims, that is part of being an open minded multi-cultural society. To try and accept the differences of another culture and try to accomodate them where possible is nothing new and we have done it in Britain for decades. The question should not be how much will I lose from cultural diversity, but what will I gain?

what will you gain? Nothing. What will you lose? Common sense led laws and rules based upon observable fact for a start.

Give me some credible reasons why we would want to accommodate a foreign culture and religion who swe us as less than equals and would never fully integrate with our established traditions or values.

 

[Storm3y]

Well yes it is but because muslims are inherently fussier and mpre vocal we all mow eat halal instead of them adopting non halal. The winner in that battle was islam. It might seem like a small change to you, but one minor exemption meant for limited quantities is now thw defacto.

Your opinion is your opinion. If it was more humane why wasn't the minimum law standard set to a this method prior to the Islamic invasion? The standards were set with animal welfare in mind and then suddenly nope this is overwritten not due to new studies showing the animals feel less this way but due to a cultural invasion.


What else? NHS women and sleeves? School uniform and the wearing of a face mask/adherence to uniform policy.

Dual signage at doctors and hospitals for non punjabi speakers. Separate women's only women's services for Muslim women etc. ..

If there's a demand for the meat then it makes business sense to serve it.

I've saw Jewish kids wear skull caps etc to school. I don't feel there is anything wrong with wearing religious garments in addition to the uniform. What I do have a problem with is kids rocking up to school in tracksuit bottoms and trainers.

Why not attack other faths as well? Sikhs for carrying a Kirpan in public or wearing a Kara? Rarely see a big song and dance about other faiths the media do you?

 

[Elrein]

That's because most other religious arn't blowing things up in the name of Allah!

 

[BuffetSlayer]

9/11

- Extremists - and not representative of the wider Muslim poulation.

Egypt

- People fighting against the Muslim brotherhood to have a more moderate and democratic society.

Syria

- Riots caused because the authorities gunned down some teenagers (sound much like London?) which then escalated into a civil war. The Extremists are trying to get a foot hold but the more moderate Muslims are fighting them every which way they can.

legalised peados

- You see many Muslim men with 6 year old wives do you? Just because it is in the book does not mean every Muslim man is a paedophile. If you really want to talk about religious Paedophilia I think you need to look more into the goings on in the Catholic church. There is a lot of things that happen in the bible that are endorsed by God which are equally as peverse. Lots of rules in there about people being put to death for a variety of things. So Christianity is equally as brutal as Islam.

hate preachers

- are a minority and do not represent the majority.

mosques everywhere and oddly enough not a single one in Saudi Arabia

- still a minority when compared to churches and gurdwaras etc. Also there are tons of Mosques in Saudi Arabia so I am not sure what you mean there.......

If Christians tried ANY of this in their home land they would be executed. Anyone see a pattern here?

- Yes, we are more liberal and accepting of differences and we try and uphold free speech. Many areas of the world do not, so that makes them all extremist Muslims? The irony is you criticise their likely response if we did it in their country in a manner that suggets we should do the same to them in this country. Meaning we should be like them, perhaps? Isn't that what you are trying to avoid? Also, they dont just execute Christians - they execute anyone who breaches their laws in a significant way - Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists etc. At least everyone there gets treated the same under law. Wouldnt it be nice if we had a system like that.....oh wait, we do! Interestingly, I wonder if you are also an advocate of bringing back capital punishment?

Give these people an inch and they will take your country, the UK has had an open door to all this and it's beyond repair....

You really believe that? Muslims are still a minority in this country. I would be wary of letting people like the Daily Mail put words into your mouth and hate into your heart.

That's because most other religious arn't blowing things up in the name of Allah!

But it is perfectly acceptable to our sensibilities when Roman Catholics were blowing stuff up all over Northern Ireland and England 30-40 years ago? Why weren't we trying to kick them out of the country? Oh, and once again it is a minority that perpetrate these crimes.

 

[The Running Man]

If there's a demand for the meat then it makes business sense to serve it.

I've saw Jewish kids wear skull caps etc to school. I don't feel there is anything wrong with wearing religious garments in addition to the uniform. What I do have a problem with is kids rocking up to school in tracksuit bottoms and trainers.

Why not attack other faths as well? Sikhs for carrying a Kirpan in public or wearing a Kara? Rarely see a big song and dance about other faiths the media do you?

Yea it makes sense, unless it's banned. Which in my view it should be.

A skull cap is not ideal. A face veil that actively hides the full face is not ideal.

Part of the issue is the rate of growth of Islamic families. For example Bradford who's population has grown by 10% from 01 - 11 has seen white decrease as a percentage from 74 to 65%. Pakistani increase from 14% to 20%. That's almost 50% in 10 years. If that happens during the next 10 years we're going to be at 30%! Then 40-50%.. who knows.


I want a more secular society this cant happen if we are constantly backdating rules and regulations to meet criteria set q thousand years ago which cannot progress.

 

[Storm3y]

That's because most other religious arn't blowing things up in the name of Allah!

So the millions of Muslims world wide are blowing stuff up? Er no I don't think so... What utter nonsense.

 

[Elrein]

Ahh seems someone got in before my edit lol

Regarding the mosques, I meant no churches in Saudi, don't know where that went.

Anyway you seem to be using the minority as a get out clause, the more they build a majority the minority will always get bigger.

And yes the Catholic Church is PACT FULL of child molesters they just don't have it out in the open.

All this religion is crap anyway, people believe what they want to believe I for one "believe" in nothing...

And I'll throw this one in, fancy the pilot of MH370 being Muslim eh..

 

[Elrein]

So the millions of Muslims world wide are blowing stuff up? Er no I don't think so... What utter nonsense.

I never said world wide? Watched the news lately? The Middle East is full of these brainwashed idiots.



Anyway I'm unsubscribing getting bored now.

 

[Meridian]

I never said world wide? Watched the news lately? The Middle East is full of these brainwashed idiots.

Yet here's the funny bit: if you add up the numbers I'll bet the Americans have blown up far more.

 

[kwerk]

Sounds like more freedom to me not less. Less government interference.

 

[BuffetSlayer]

Yea it makes sense, unless it's banned. Which in my view it should be.

A skull cap is not ideal. A face veil that actively hides the full face is not ideal.

Part of the issue is the rate of growth of Islamic families. For example Bradford who's population has grown by 10% from 01 - 11 has seen white decrease as a percentage from 74 to 65%. Pakistani increase from 14% to 20%. That's almost 50% in 10 years. If that happens during the next 10 years we're going to be at 30%! Then 40-50%.. who knows.


I want a more secular society this cant happen if we are constantly backdating rules and regulations to meet criteria set q thousand years ago which cannot progress.

The Halal meat argument is a bit of a straw man. What actual difference does it make to you or me? Meat is meat, and as long as it is killed in a humane manner, the majority of people will not have a problem with it. If the Muslim population can be catered for by someone saying a prayer during slaughter I don't think that is an overbearing concession.

For those Christians who really have a problem with it, just don't eat it. To that end, I concede that better labeling of food is needed but that is a separate issue and is more complicated than whether something is Halal or not.

In fact, compared to gassing and electrocution, I think there is an argument that Halal is more humane. The animal is treated with respect, and due to sudden loss of blood pressure to the brain dies in a couple of seconds anyway.

Ahh seems someone got in before my edit lol

Regarding the mosques, I meant no churches in Saudi, don't know where that went.

Yes, that is correct. It is illegal in Saudi Arabia to practice any other religion and those found guilty can face very severe punishment. In my opinion it is a reprehensible policy. Are you saying you think we should employ the same stance in this country? Surely then we become no better than that which we denounce as reprehensible?

Anyway you seem to be using the minority as a get out clause, the more they build a majority the minority will always get bigger.

I think it is difficult to prove our points here without quantitative information to qualify either way. But it stands to reason that those who are extreme and like blowing themselves up are in the minority, otherwise the Muslim population would be an awful lot smaller

Instead of people whining about the growth of Muslim families, perhaps those who take issue with it should just have loads of kids of their own and tell their kids to have loads to kids in order to redress the balance? But I think it is important to note that large families is indicative of many cultures in the east because of poor living conditions and premature death because of disease. It is not limited to Muslims. Indians, Pakistani's and Arabs all have a similar culture for the 'extended' family.

And yes the Catholic Church is PACT FULL of child molesters they just don't have it out in the open.

Again, hard to qualify but I suspect that the people perpetrating child abuse within the Catholic church are in the minority.

All this religion is crap anyway, people believe what they want to believe I for one "believe" in nothing...

Well that is not strictly true is it? You clearly believe that Muslims are somehow beneath you and that they all behave like brainwashed idiots

And I'll throw this one in, fancy the pilot of MH370 being Muslim eh..

Yes - fancy that. A pilot in a Muslim country who is a Muslim. What are the odds?

If you are alluding to the allegation that he may of deliberately crashed the plane, I would respectfully remind you that being a suicidal pilot is not a distinctly Muslim trait.

 

[The Running Man]

The Halal meat argument is a bit of a straw man. What actual difference does it make to you or me? Meat is meat, and as long as it is killed in a humane manner, the majority of people will not have a problem with it. If the Muslim population can be catered for by someone saying a prayer during slaughter I don't think that is an overbearing concession.

For those Christians who really have a problem with it, just don't eat it. To that end, I concede that better labeling of food is needed but that is a separate issue and is more complicated than whether something is Halal or not.

In fact, compared to gassing and electrocution, I think there is an argument that Halal is more humane. The animal is treated with respect, and due to sudden loss of blood pressure to the brain dies in a couple of seconds anyway.

.

Well, I'm not sure that is true. But irrespective of that it poses some unique issues.

You can tell me if it is more or less cruel, I wont be the judge.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...osher-meat-says-new-leader-Britains-vets.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm

What if I am culturally not Islamic and therefore do not believe that Mohammed is a true prophet, or indeed the last all knowing prophet. To me he could therefore potentially be the anti Christ. Should everyone in the country be forced into eating meat blessed to the god of the anti Christ?

From a non religious viewpoint, why should the meat I eat come pre blessed anyway? it should not, it should come without religious commitment and if it needs to be blessed in the household of the consumer, then let it be so. But don't make it so that everyone must eat it. Why should my right be trampled on to accommodate a minority in that respect?

And as for strawman arguments, I notice you ignore the rest of my post and only really review the cruelty aspect.

But what you're not selling me is this, why would a progressive culture need to have the status quo upset by increasingly making the country more attractive to Asians/Muslims?

I need you to sell me why this is such a positive thing. What net benefits are they bringing that say, an eastern European who is already culturally similar (i.e from a catholic type nation) could not? Why is it a good thing that the Asian population in Bradford has increased by nearly 50% in a 10 year period. Why do I want or why do I need this? We have already had race riots there, here, what is so appealing about upsetting what was the status quo?

I am a tolerant person, and we are not just a tolerate country, we have become an attractive country through the changes to our systems that are being made. Why should we actively want this? We were meandering away from religion, towards a less religious state. How can the inclusion of more people from a highly intolerant and vocal religious denomination help us to move towards a secular state and not one dominated by uncorroborated books written thousands of years ago. This is what eastern/Asian immigration has brought with it. We cannot ignore it, and we are seeing the effects on all aspects of our social/work life being changed (not for the better and not always in an equal manner for all parties). I need to understand what it is that I am meant to be thrilled about with these changes taking place so quickly on our doorstep.

 

[bitslice]

Any right minded person would not brand an entire religion as extreme, violent and dangerous based on the acts of a few.

Oh Really?




Ongoing armed conflicts

Countries that persecute Christians

Muslim Countries

Anyone notice any pattern here?

Edit: removed a bit, open to misinterpretation.

I feel more culturally enriched every day

/

 

[Rofflay]

Haha you gotta love it when people spend twenty minutes to debunk everything you said. I loved the bit where it was stated everyone who thinks Islam is a danger to Britain has been brainwashed. Brainwashed by who? Did Stormfront start mailing to every UK address? Islam put its self in the spotlight and not just 7/11 or 9/11 or Rigby its in every newspaper almost EVERYDAY. This is the UK not the middle east its very evident that even a 5% Islamic population can have serious problems in our society. And if you think we are being paranoid just go read your history on how Muslims managed to spread to India and Thailand. Its done through immigration and massive birth rates not just conversion. So to say the UK is not in any danger is immature. This is the exact same attitude people have always had to Islam this is why the Roman Empire, The Persian Empire, Egypt, India and China all lost signifiant terrirtory. Its even happening now with Turkey in Cyprus and it will with the 50 million odd Muslims in Europe.

Regarding the mosques, I meant no churches in Saudi, don't know where that went.

Illegal to build or maintain churches without state approval in Islamic states and all forms of items not Islamic are also illegal like the bible. flouting these laws and conversion away can result in a death penalty.

The Halal meat argument is a bit of a straw man. What actual difference does it make to you or me? Meat is meat, and as long as it is killed in a humane manner, the majority of people will not have a problem with it.

Halal is cruel the animal cannot be stunned before it has the throat cut. Would you like to have your throat cut without being stunned first? And there is no label system either so i have eaten Halal probably without knowing. I barely eat meat so naturally i find this insulting and worthy of a lawsuit. Even the Uk's top vet is against it so its a straw man?

 

[Storm3y]

Halal is cruel the animal cannot be stunned before it has the throat cut. Would you like to have your throat cut without being stunned first? And there is no label system either so i have eaten Halal probably without knowing. I barely eat meat so naturally i find this insulting and worthy of a lawsuit. Even the Uk's top vet is against it so its a straw man?

I'd probably none of the wiser if they used a very sharp, smooth knife and cut my main arterie in my neck. Blood pressure would drop in seconds and you'd be unconscious then a gonner.

I do agree with you I think it should be made clear if the meat is halal or not. I'm pretty sure most of the lamb in the supermarkets is Halal but they don't label all of it as it puts people off.