• Competitor rules

    Please remember that any mention of competitors, hinting at competitors or offering to provide details of competitors will result in an account suspension. The full rules can be found under the 'Terms and Rules' link in the bottom right corner of your screen. Just don't mention competitors in any way, shape or form and you'll be OK.

Firaxis discusses why Mantle is revolutionary for their work with Civilization: Beyond Earth

Also, what does Mantle offer in the way of IQ improvements?

That's quite simple. Mantle gives you more performance to start with so you are able to design a better looking game or if we are talking about in the 2 games used atm. Look at Humbug's fps using dx and mantle on thief or bf4. It allows him to use higher settings so better IQ. It's not just on the average either as the minimums are also a lot higher and the drops a lot lower so the game runs smoother.
 
Last edited:
That's quite simple. Mantle gives you more performance to start with so you are able to design a better looking game.

Yeah, erm no.

I'll expand I guess, I mean actual technological advancements, you know, lighting and the like, those which actually increase IQ without throwing more pixels at it?
Also, the performance gain on Mantle you're over rating, the big gains are there for multi-gpu, and severely CPU bottlenecked situations, for most there's no where near enough grunt to do what you're suggesting.

EDIT : Humbug has a rather bottlenecked set up because of his CPU so Mantle gains for him are going to be very good, so you're slanting the figures to your POV, and ironically vast majority of people using Mantle have to lower IQ because of that VRAM inefficiency.
 
Last edited:
No, developers like coding for a single API. The last thing they want is to double the development time of their rendering pipeline.

And there is no monopoly. OpenGL supports all the features of a DX, is more extensible and is faster.

I think there is probably a reason why both AMD and Nvidia have not been so enthusiastic about OGL as an API.

I don't know anything about OGL, but i do know some things about Open Source.

It can be disjointed with no real direction; no one really in charge and everyone wanting their say, it can also have a very regressive "This is My Church" mentality with patriants dreaming about the good old days before object orientated computing interface.

There is something to be said for dictatorships over democracies where applicable.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, erm no.

I'll expand I guess, I mean actual technological advancements, you know, lighting and the like, those which actually increase IQ without throwing more pixels at it?
Also, the performance gain on Mantle you're over rating, the big gains are there for multi-gpu, and severely CPU bottlenecked situations, for most there's no where near enough grunt to do what you're suggesting.

The games you are seeing are built on dx with mantle patched in. You are not seeing a game built on Mantle where it would be able to show it's true potential. It's a wait and see situation but even Nvidia guys like Rroff who does have some coding experience have said along the lines that using Mantle would along for higher IQ settings. Could they bring out new lighting techniques and other features i don't know but at this moment i doubt thats a priority as DX is still the main API where game coding is concerned.

EDIT : Humbug has a rather bottlenecked set up because of his CPU so Mantle gains for him are going to be very good, so you're slanting the figures to your POV, and ironically vast majority of people using Mantle have to lower IQ because of that VRAM inefficiency.
[/QUOTE]

I was just showing you the potential of mantle. DX can even bottleneck games like CIV 5 on a 3930 as Kaap has said. Imagine CIV 5 had Mantle i doubt it would be the case and even more could be shown on screen at higher detail. With Mantle more can be done end of story.
 
Last edited:
I wonder how many of the people that now hate Microsoft so much still use Windows as their OS?
Cuz if Microsoft are holding things back, why use their products?
AMD are so amazing don't they have a lightweight OS for gamers? If not, what are they playing at, why are AMD helping to stagnate PC gaming? Do AMD really hate PC gamers that much?
Windows is not the only OS on the market, but it is the most popular. But you could use Linux if you prefer it to Windows. If not then you must think Windows is the best OS (at least for gaming) but yet Microsoft are stagnatign things? Could Windows be better? Yes. Which just means that there's a gap i nthe market for someone else to come along and do better. But they haven't. Yet we're only blaming Microsoft?
DirectX isn't and hasn't been the only API available, but it seems to be the most popular. So people must be choosing to use it? If it is so bad couldn't someone come along and do better? Why must it be Microsoft? I mean sure Microsoft want it to be Microsoft, but why do we expect it to be Microsoft? Why does it matter to us? Why is it so important that Microsoft do things better?

People saying Nvidia should adopt Mantle to help fight Microsoft. The thing is even if Mantle performs better on Nvidia than DX does, if it performs better on AMD than Nvidia then it's not in Nvidias interest to help Mantle. Better for Nvidia, from a business point of view (which is what they are) to keep the playing field more even on DX.
Using that same logic, surely as long as DX12 is better than DX11 then it's a good thing, even if it's not as good as Mantle? Unless people are expecting DX12 to be worse than DX11 (in which case would developers really start using it? If not, then it doesn't matter), then what's the problem with DX12?

Do we want a better API than DirectX 11? Yes, I think so.
Do we want each vendor to have their own API? Maybe, maybe not. If it splits games then it'd be bad, if it just means that all hardware gets a really optimised API and developers implement it well without too much knock on cost to us, then it could be a good thing.
Do we want one vendor to develop and control the API? I don't think so. I think AMD's chance to release Mantle to a 3rd party for control has been and gone. If they had come up with the basicas and then handed it over to be fully realised with inputs from all it would've been better, slower no doubt, but better over all.

I think it's fine if Mantle stays around, i just don't think anyone else should try to support it now.
 
I was just showing you the potential of mantle. DX can even bottleneck games like CIV 5 on a 3930 as Kaap has said. Imagine CIV 5 had Mantle i doubt it would be the case and even more could be shown on screen at higher detail. With Mantle more can be done end of story.

I've said before, Mantle could change Rome Total War 2, so I'm well aware of what it brings.

But it's because of the CPU cycles is it not?
 
I wonder how many of the people that now hate Microsoft so much still use Windows as their OS?
*Snip*

Because thats all there is, once PC gaming is as accessible on Linux as it is on Windows i wont be using Windows anymore.

AMD are looking at making Mantle for Linux, that they have said, IMO the reason they have now joined forces with CryTek is to move it to the next logical stage, Linux.
 
I've said before, Mantle could change Rome Total War 2, so I'm well aware of what it brings.

But it's because of the CPU cycles is it not?

Yea its DX limited compared to Mantle. Mantle brings more than just a higher Average. I think we are also forgetting that Mantle is just smoother than DX which would also allow for higher detail as at lower fps it would feel smoother as well. Any how we all know the consoles can do a lot more with there hardware due to there low level Api and fixed Hardware. It stands to reason with a lower level api like Mantle the Pc would be able to do more as well. I guess if DX12 is what Microsoft say it is then we will all get near Mantle benefits. If not then i hope mantle goes on to teach them a lesson.
 
Last edited:
Yea its DX limited compared to mantle. Any how we all know the consoles can do a lot more with there hardware due to there low level Api and fixed Hardware. It stands to reason with a lower level api like Mantle the Pc would be able to do more as well. I guess if DX12 is what Microsoft say it is then we will all get near Mantle benefits. If not then i hope mantle goes on to teach them a lesson.

The consoles and their low level API are no where near the same as the PC is with Mantle for GCN, that's evident by how little we get out of the GPU's that aren't bottle necked in comparison to what consoles do.
 
The consoles and their low level API are no where near the same as the PC is with Mantle for GCN, that's evident by how little we get out of the GPU's that aren't bottle necked in comparison to what consoles do.

I would say that's more to do with the games being wrote and developed for the consoles rather than some guy working for 3 months to patch mantle into the game. If we ever get a game that's written for mantle with a huge team like dx and the consoles have then the differences will be seen. Yes the console API's are much closer to the metal on there fixed hardware and benefit more because of it.
 
Microsoft have used their API monopoly to stagnate PC Gaming

How many games actually use all the features of DX11 or OpenGL? a handful at most, the reason PC gaming has stagnated into a shadow of it's former self is because of developers not bothering to make games that push the limits, instead making dull "consolized" games instead.
 
How many games actually use all the features of DX11 or OpenGL? a handful at most, the reason PC gaming has stagnated into a shadow of it's former self is because of developers not bothering to make games that push the limits, instead making dull "consolized" games instead.

Have to agree there.
 
I'll expand I guess, I mean actual technological advancements, you know, lighting and the like, those which actually increase IQ without throwing more pixels at it?

I believe Mantle enables the creation of new algorithms and methods in much the same way that broadband Internet enabled video sites like youtube/******** etc.

By exposing more of the traditionally black-boxed driver operations, AMD seem to think people will come up with novel ways of doing things like lighting, physics or whatever. Most of what they said in their tech talk went over my head but that's what I took from it.
 
How many games actually use all the features of DX11 or OpenGL? a handful at most, the reason PC gaming has stagnated into a shadow of it's former self is because of developers not bothering to make games that push the limits, instead making dull "consolized" games instead.

BF4 and look at the problems they had, have...
 
Same GCN architecture in the XB1 is why that came about, it makes sense, even if its not a copy, which it probably isn't, its based on exactly the same Hardware architecture, so in Darwin terms its not from the same Gene Pool but it is evolving in the same climate.

It will share similarities to Mantle, though i think it will be a poor cousin.



Don't take my word for it, Look at what Developers say about it.

Developers that aren't being paid by AMD aren't saying much at all!

I am a developer (not games) and I can tell the last thing anyone is bespoke platform specific APIs and are much more willing to trade a small CPU overhead for a simpler API.

yes, developers do want a graphics API with lower CPU overhead, but they don't want the industry jumping back 20 years. As graphics cards get more and more complex games can have more and more complex graphics but this takes more and more time to develop so there is less and less desire for multiple APIS. There was much hatred 20 years ago, that is only worse now.


Besides which mantle doesn't resolve the fundamental issue in any unique way that would make a paradigm shift. yes, draw calls are slow but that is mostly due to hardware limitations. Any time there is data or instructions going from the CPU and main memory to the graphics card and GPU memory then there is a time cost. Mantle doesn't resolve that because the problem is a hardware issue and even a new CPU interface BUS wouldn't change the fact that system memory is slower than GPU memory. Therefore things like mega textures, texture atlases, instancing etc. are still required even with Mantle

Furthermore, with the move to 4K screens GPUS become very pixel shader limited so CPU constraints matter less.

What is actually needed and coming due to the increased capabilities of GPGPU and increased memory sizes is to transfer more load from the CPU to the GPU so the drawcalls don't emanate from the CPU but the GPU issues them itself. Things like scene graphs, spatial partitioning trees, frustum culling, occlusion all can be shifted to the GPU so the GPU decided what to render, rather than the CPU deciding what to render and then sending the necessary draw calls. things like Physx go a step towards this direction, e.g. it already allows line of site and occlusion checking in the GPU. Nvidia has already provided OGL extension for efficient occlusion http://http.developer.nvidia.com/GPUGems/gpugems_ch29.html

This is developer with strong AMD ties (can't remember if they work for AMD or gets spnsership) but the website is stuffed with the future of graphics programming:
http://rastergrid.com/blog/2010/10/opengl-4-0-mountains-demo-released/

All the object-level information must stay on the GPU and the CPU should not make decisions on a per-object basis.
The renderer should use as few draw calls as possible in order to solve the problem of visibility determination.
Don’t draw anything that is not inside the view frustum or is occluded by terrain.

The result is a renderer that does little to no scene management on the CPU, instead uses the GPU for visibility determination that is, in most cases, able to reduce the scene’s geometric complexity from over 400 million triangles under one million triangles
Hierarchical-Z map based occlusion culling
http://rastergrid.com/blog/2010/10/hierarchical-z-map-based-occlusion-culling/

Instance culling using geometry shaders
http://rastergrid.com/blog/2010/02/instance-culling-using-geometry-shaders/




All of that stuff is where the developers are going and makes a far bigger difference than the Mantle API
This is the current state of most games
Code:
// Mantle/OGl/DX running on CPU
if ( expensiveCullingAndVisibilityTest(ScaryMonster) == VISIBLE)
{
    // Send drawcall to GPU, if texture/geometry not loaded then do very expensive uploads. 
    sendDrawCall2GPU(ScaryMonster)...
}
// Mantle makes the draw call a little faster, but there is still a draw call which is inherently slow and we had to use a slow culling algorithm

This is where most games are heading.
Code:
// OGL/DX running on the GPU 
// The culling is done on the GPU, and these algorithms are inherently parallel so suit GPGPU perfectly, takes load of CPU
if ( fastCullingAndVisibilityTest(ScaryMonster) == VISIBLE)
{
   // No need to send anything to the GPU, it is already there, so no draw calls required. We have sufficient memory nt to need expensive data uploads.
   draw(ScaryMonster)...
}
// CPU  did nothing to render the scene, the GPU did everything, CPU concentrated on AI (with help form the GPU using physX)
 
Developers that aren't being paid by AMD aren't saying much at all!

I am a developer (not games) and I can tell the last thing anyone is bespoke platform specific APIs and are much more willing to trade a small CPU overhead for a simpler API.

yes, developers do want a graphics API with lower CPU overhead, but they don't want the industry jumping back 20 years. As graphics cards get more and more complex games can have more and more complex graphics but this takes more and more time to develop so there is less and less desire for multiple APIS. There was much hatred 20 years ago, that is only worse now.


Besides which mantle doesn't resolve the fundamental issue in any unique way that would make a paradigm shift. yes, draw calls are slow but that is mostly due to hardware limitations. Any time there is data or instructions going from the CPU and main memory to the graphics card and GPU memory then there is a time cost. Mantle doesn't resolve that because the problem is a hardware issue and even a new CPU interface BUS wouldn't change the fact that system memory is slower than GPU memory. Therefore things like mega textures, texture atlases, instancing etc. are still required even with Mantle

Furthermore, with the move to 4K screens GPUS become very pixel shader limited so CPU constraints matter less.

What is actually needed and coming due to the increased capabilities of GPGPU and increased memory sizes is to transfer more load from the CPU to the GPU so the drawcalls don't emanate from the CPU but the GPU issues them itself. Things like scene graphs, spatial partitioning trees, frustum culling, occlusion all can be shifted to the GPU so the GPU decided what to render, rather than the CPU deciding what to render and then sending the necessary draw calls. things like Physx go a step towards this direction, e.g. it already allows line of site and occlusion checking in the GPU. Nvidia has already provided OGL extension for efficient occlusion http://http.developer.nvidia.com/GPUGems/gpugems_ch29.html

This is developer with strong AMD ties (can't remember if they work for AMD or gets spnsership) but the website is stuffed with the future of graphics programming:
http://rastergrid.com/blog/2010/10/opengl-4-0-mountains-demo-released/


Hierarchical-Z map based occlusion culling
http://rastergrid.com/blog/2010/10/hierarchical-z-map-based-occlusion-culling/

Instance culling using geometry shaders
http://rastergrid.com/blog/2010/02/instance-culling-using-geometry-shaders/




All of that stuff is where the developers are going and makes a far bigger difference than the Mantle API
This is the current state of most games
Code:
// Mantle/OGl/DX running on CPU
if ( expensiveCullingAndVisibilityTest(ScaryMonster) == VISIBLE)
{
    // Send drawcall to GPU, if texture/geometry not loaded then do very expensive uploads. 
    sendDrawCall2GPU(ScaryMonster)...
}
// Mantle makes the draw call a little faster, but there is still a draw call which is inherently slow and we had to use a slow culling algorithm
This is where most games are heading.
Code:
// OGL/DX running on the GPU 
// The culling is done on the GPU, and these algorithms are inherently parallel so suit GPGPU perfectly, takes load of CPU
if ( fastCullingAndVisibilityTest(ScaryMonster) == VISIBLE)
{
   // No need to send anything to the GPU, it is already there, so no draw calls required. We have sufficient memory nt to need expensive data uploads.
   draw(ScaryMonster)...
}
// CPU  did nothing to render the scene, the GPU did everything, CPU concentrated on AI (with help form the GPU using physX)[/SPOILER]
Those articles are 4 years old. And Mantle already runs culling on the GPU.
 
Back
Top Bottom