Vegetarianism: what if we didn't eat meat

[elmarko]

I agree, the quality of life of animals is not to be ignored. I believe we need to do far more in this area.

I don't see any false dichotomy. If we are arguing between vegetarianism and eating meat, to me its about what causes minimal animal suffering. This may all be futile in the future anyway, since they will end up 3D printing food, reducing the need to kill animals for our Sunday lunches.

As for your last paragraph, the consumption of vegetables will result in the death of animals too. As will road building, travel, etc etc.

Can you explain how home grown vegetables or say sealed hydroponics would result in the deaths of animals?.

I agree that artificially created meat is the ultimate solution, meat consumption without ethical issues.

 

[Jon123456]

The fact if younfollow the link in your article, to rpthe stats body. 600,000 are grain fed, this doesn't even take into account grass fed but stored. Or bumped up with extra feed.

And what about the chicken feed?

Nothing you have said so far sports your argument.

In fact everything you produced so far works in my favour, as crops are grown to feed meat. that is less efficient than feeding us on crops.
Except for one extremely lowly populated country, and a suspect report.

If 600,000 are grain fed, how does this support your argument? You haven't stated how. Because it doesn't.

The population of Australia has nothing to do with their report. Please ignore its findings that 25 times more animals die as a result, if you find that convenient.

 

[Glaucus]

If 600,000 are grain fed, how does this support your argument? You haven't stated how. Because it doesn't.

The population of Australia has nothing to do with their report. Please ignore its findings that 25 times more animals die as a result, if you find that convenient.

Population if Australia what?

And how many more tons if grain are used on those cattle?
Then lets look world wide.

Your statement that more animals die for vegetarians is false. More die in meat production.

Or did your statement say only applies, if talking about Australian beef, and no other animal. where other countries and other meat more animals die.

just loo at your continued position, you clearly didn't have a clue and are now trying to hold onto it.
Your other thread speaks volumes about you.

 

[Eurofighter]

Less animals would die, which is the main benefit.

 

[Jon123456]

Can you explain how home grown vegetables or say sealed hydroponics would result in the deaths of animals?.

I agree that artificially created meat is the ultimate solution, meat consumption without ethical issues.

I know nothing about hydrophonics and don't grow my own. It would seem to be the most death free approach. However, its not possible for many people to do this. City dwellers, those who don't have the time or space at home, or even a garden! Or if they have a garden, not of sufficient size.

But sometimes I wonder if even artificially created meat will have ethical issues. What about the living cells within the meat? What if it was discovered that it felt pain?

 

[Jon123456]

Population if Australia what?

And how many more tons if grain are used on those cattle?
Then lets look world wide.

Your statement that more animals die for vegetarians is false. More die in meat production.

Or did your statement say only applies, if talking about Australian beef, and no other animal. where other countries and other meat more animals die.

just loo at your continued position, you clearly didn't have a clue and are now trying to hold onto it.
Your other thread speaks volumes about you.

Try to argue coherently so we understand you.

Please provide at least some evidence to support your position, if you can. But you clearly can't.

My other thread shows I am not a fan of cruelty to animals. Something that I want to speak volumes about me.

 

[Amp34]

The problem's I have personal encountered with being vegetarian, is if you don't have a really well planned out diet, you tend to lack a lot of essential minerals and vitamins.
I would appear the human body isn't as good as animals are making them ourselves and missing out on them in our diet always, as my previous and current gf are proving. (I know I seem to attract them lol)
Both have been constantly tired on occasion and have had numerous visits to the doctors with both being put on Iron tablets.

I have seen doctors notes that didn't even bother to check for anything else, they just hear vegetarian and send them for blood tests instantly.

I don't think it's healthy if your lazy.

What I never understand with vegetarianism is the massive issue of "cross contamination". As someone who has a genuine medical reason for not eating some foods it always gets to me when vegetarians end up with "preferential" treatment, in the sense that most appear to not be able to just pick up vegetables/cheese etc. that is sharing a platter with meat, or eat around the meat portion of a meal. Instead everything has to be segregated, causing issue for everyone else in many cases. It just boggles the brain!

While contamination of meat "juice" or smell can happen it's akin to peppers infusing though a salad at worst. I don't like peppers, doesn't mean I send a salad back and insist on having one without peppers, I just eat everything and leave the pepper slices...

While those that don't like the taste could get away with the above the ones that don't eat meat for "ethical and environmental" reasons (many of who still eat fish, because that's "different!") are even worse. Use more energy and waste because you can't possibly eat something that at one point may have touched a piece of meat!

Anyway... I find vegetarianism to be a strange beast, but then many food "intolerances" are becoming like that too, it's fashionable to be "different" don't you know... As long as you can have that tasty pastie or push the boat out and eat the cheesecake you shouldn't for dessert because it "looks so yummy"!

 

[Amp34]

I think you've missed my point. Removing what is one of the primary constraints on population growth is exactly what we don't want to be doing if we want to save the planet.

Ahh, ok. I did indeed read it as you suggesting the planet could support 10 billion without an environmental disaster. I take it you don't believe that.

 

[Amp34]

The report is not valid. Theres not enough land, and yes the USA is even worse as nearly 100% is grain fed the whole time.

As I said you are wrong, you still are wrong and pretty deluded to say otherwise. More likely as you don't know how animals are raised.

How many chickens do you think we could raise on 100% wild?
How many cows do you think we could 100% passture, seeing as we have winter which means grass barely grows.

These things aren't possible for mass production.

Pasture does not mean no extra feed, so the report could well be wrong on that regard, but can't find any easy to find figures for Australian cattle.

Out of interest did you read the linked article by George Monbiot?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestation

Interesting take on the subject.

Essentially big business is, as usual, not great. However it can be done, but as usual, you have to pay for it.

EDIT:

The world would be less polluted as dairy and meat production contributes more co2 than every car on the planet

If more people cut meat out of their diet, we wouldn't need to breed so many cattle etc. so they wouldn't disappear. Unless everyone followed a strict vegan diet their would still be uses for those animals. My own belief is we shouldn't rely on animal suffering for our own gain and a a such follow a vegan lifestyle

Not true, read the link above.

If you really care about CO2 emissions, don't have kids. That's the greatest thing you can do to reduce future CO2 emissions and environmental destruction.

EDIT 2:

I agree, the quality of life of animals is not to be ignored. I believe we need to do far more in this area.

I don't see any false dichotomy. If we are arguing between vegetarianism and eating meat, to me its about what causes minimal animal suffering. This may all be futile in the future anyway, since they will end up 3D printing food, reducing the need to kill animals for our Sunday lunches.

As for your last paragraph, the consumption of vegetables will result in the death of animals too. As will road building, travel, etc etc.

And in reality this goes back to the first post I made and the comment just above. The problem is not killing animals and the use of grain to feed them. That's a symptom of the actual problem. The actual problem being humans have been breeding like rabbits for the last 100 years and with the advances in medicine and nutrition have managed to explode it's population to almost plague proportions, damaging the environment we depend on and destroying the lives of most other species we share the planet with.

If you really care don't have kids. Alternatively have a max of 2 if you really must but remember every child will cause the production of far more CO2 (and other pollutants) and the killing of far more animals than you can hope to save without completely changing the way you live.

 

[dowie]

Can you explain how home grown vegetables or say sealed hydroponics would result in the deaths of animals?.

I agree that artificially created meat is the ultimate solution, meat consumption without ethical issues.

Not necessarily - ethics aren't fixed - you could argue that its better for an animal to have existed, led a regular life not under stress and be killed as humanely as possible than for it to have not existed at all. Various cows, sheep are only alive roaming fields because we want to eventually eat them. Various chickens confined to life in a cramped barn however perhaps shouldn't be kept in those conditions.

 

[Elixir]

I'm not really following the rest of the argument, but I'd like to make sure Jon realises combines don't harvest animals as they go through the field. Insects maybe, but not mammals/snakes.

 

[Amp34]

I'm not really following the rest of the argument, but I'd like to make sure Jon realises combines don't harvest animals as they go through the field. Insects maybe, but not mammals/snakes.

Many small animals, especially mice and small ground nesting birds will freeze or be unable to outrun the full width of a combine blade. That's not even mentioning the number of dor- and field mouse nests with young (for example) that will get cut.

EDIT: It's not just small rodents and birds, fawns are victims as well.

https://www.thedodo.com/germany-launches-drones-to-pre-529079961.html

The pilot project has shown great promise in spotting the young animals, about 100,000 of which fall victim in Germany every year to the large agricultural machines, said project spokesman Rolf Stockum on April 25.

 

[Art]

Meat is mostly protein, which isn't vital for effort. Plants are mostly carbohydrates, which are vital for effort. That's how he does it.

Decent sources of protein are kind of essential when you're extremely physically active Besides, I was more responding to ChroniC's comments about some vegetarians lacking vitamins or minerals. That's not really a problem with vegetarianism, that's a problem with people not managing their diet properly, hence the example of the guy who can win ultramarathons on a vegan diet.

 

[Elixir]

Many small animals, especially mice and small ground nesting birds will freeze or be unable to outrun the full width of a combine blade. That's not even mentioning the number of dor- and field mouse nests with young (for example) that will get cut.

The majority of nests are below the height of the cutter blade. Mice can easily outrun a combine blade, and birds soon realise they need to fly away.

Source: Lived on a farm 20 years, worked 5 harvests on a farm and driven a combine during harvest. Never seen an animal go through the combine, and yes you would notice.

 

[dowie]

The other thing I'd add to this is that people have increasing obesity problems these days... frequently eating takeaways, processed food etc.. because its easier. I don't really buy the cost argument as basics like potatoes, rice, pasta, beans, milk, bread, veg aren't expensive. I do wonder, if meat became significantly more expensive though to the point were we went back to it being a luxury item only consumed maybe once a week, then perhaps the obesity problem we have might be reduced - something like half of all adults are overweight in the UK.

 

[dowie]

Insects might well become a more popular food choice/source of protein... especially for the proles..

 

[Amp34]

The majority of nests are below the height of the cutter blade. Mice can easily outrun a combine blade, and birds soon realise they need to fly away.

Source: Lived on a farm 20 years, worked 5 harvests on a farm and driven a combine during harvest. Never seen an animal go through the combine, and yes you would notice.

See my above edit or below...

The pilot project has shown great promise in spotting the young animals, about 100,000 of which fall victim in Germany every year to the large agricultural machines, said project spokesman Rolf Stockum on April 25.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/mi...dders.aspx?pageID=238&nID=65588&NewsCatID=374

That's just one example.

Unfortunately doing something doesn't mean you are the font of all knowledge. It the same in farming as Oil and Gas, Manufacturing and Finance (etc etc..). It's why we have regulation and scientific studies.

EDIT: Not saying all animals are killed, or even the majority, but some will be.

 

[Amp34]

The other thing I'd add to this is that people have increasing obesity problems these days... frequently eating takeaways, processed food etc.. because its easier. I don't really buy the cost argument as basics like potatoes, rice, pasta, beans, milk, bread, veg aren't expensive. I do wonder, if meat became significantly more expensive though to the point were we went back to it being a luxury item only consumed maybe once a week, then perhaps the obesity problem we have might be reduced - something like half of all adults are overweight in the UK.

Veg can be incredibly expensive, unless you buy frozen everything, which has it's own implications for health (quality and source of frozen goods over fresh - more relating to meat than veg though).

 

[Elixir]

See my above edit or below...





http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/mi...dders.aspx?pageID=238&nID=65588&NewsCatID=374

That's just one example.

Unfortunately doing something doesn't mean you are the font of all knowledge. It the same in farming as Oil and Gas, Manufacturing and Finance (etc etc..). It's why we have regulation and scientific studies.

EDIT: Not saying all animals are killed, or even the majority, but some will be.

That isn't an example about combine harvesters, that's an article about hay shredders.

EDIT: I notice it seems to combine (no pun intended) them into one group in the article, so I guess this is where the difference is.

 

[adolf hamster]

mother dearest is a vegitarian, not a militant one but the passive variety. she seems to do ok out of it. my personal view is hmmmmmm bacons.....

economically speaking there is an argument for it, acreage for a whole cow compared to acreage for tofu and such. but then that same argument can be used to point out there are too many humans regardless, and maybe better life for fewer is a worthy trade off.