Vegetarianism: what if we didn't eat meat

[elmarko]

The number of cattle will decrease until they become either used solely for dairy, or until they become "wild" animals and just roam around doing their thing being animals, whilst (non-human) predators hunt them.

We don't need to eat meat, but we are designed to be able to. So people have a choice. However it is easier to get your nutrition with meat and fish than without - however the "good" vegetarians learn a lot about their diet and exploit/maximise the limits of their food choices.

When you start to get to Veganism is when it really starts to task your creativity for creating food with lots of nutrition.

Maybe it's because I'm a glutton, lazy, or rich enough to be able to afford it, but I wouldn't be happy to forego meat every day. I don't mind the odd day of meat-free eating, but couldn't do it for life. I also enjoy my fish far too much. Also I'm a bit of a nutrition bore, and enjoy giving my body the nutrition it needs, which means that whilst it would be more difficult (effort wise) as a vegetarian I could do it - but I wouldn't enjoy it as much.

Indeed I very much agree.

While it does require more effort for veganism (not that much for vegetarianism) it's entirely possible to eat a healthy & balanced diet as a meat eater, vegetarian or vegan.

It's a matter of balancing your requirements & making up for deficiencies which result from a potential diet, be that b12 for vegans, iron for some vegetarian diets or fibre for many meat eaters.

 

[Glaucus]

It all must be a conspiracy then, like global warming, the moon landing etc.

http://www.livescience.com/43839-too-much-protein-help-cancers-grow.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-05/low-carb-diet-may-shorten-your-life-study-finds/5299284

How do you explain this? And before you say meat is only harmful when the diet lacks moderation, answer why vegetables aren't harmful, despite that they are not eaten in moderation by vegetarians.

this is nothing like global warming or moon landings.
Again such studies do not go into detail. Theunare not clinical trials. They rely on pompoms telling them what they've eaten. they do not go into brand, they do not go into what chemicals are in the food, or what oils are in the food.

Again a typical high meat eater, will more than likely have significantly processed food, higher artificial chemicals, higher man made fats etc.

As I said there is a massive lack of clinical studies that show anything, they flip and flop from one side to the other. Why? Because they sore so poorly designed they are worthless, you can spend weeks look at pub med and read how the trials took place, they are either meta with no detail. Or very short clinical trials with no planning. And allow anything in the high protein diet. As I said you heed a long term clinical trial that tests a clean balanced vegetarian diet vs a clean balanced meat diet.
"nothing so far has even got close to that.
You can Google all you want, you will not fond such studies.
However if you such cholesterol you will find exactly the same, which now they've done clinical trials they've had to U-turn on them. Meta studies can not prove anything. As shown so many times and so many u-turns.

 

[semi-pro waster]

Do you really believe that you would see any lovely cows and pigs and sheep and chickens if we didn't eat them?
Would anyone keep them, and feed them and breed them?
Would anyone give up the acres and acres of land for them?

Yes to all of the above although not in the same quantities.

Essentially would most of these animals we use for foodstuff become extinct?

Some breeds would be likely to die out as they are perhaps not as appealing as others but the idea that none of the animals that people eat would continue seems absurd.

I know we get dairy products from them but would that be enough?
I know vegitatians would not really think about "what if.." if the rest of the world suddenly had a change of heart overnight but its an interesting thought non the less. (or maybe it's not )

The what ifs of the question don't interest me all that much as it's too far removed from reality to make a useful hypothesis. People aren't going to stop eating meat, they might reduce their intake due to financial/ethical/scarcity issues but none of the above are likely to have any significant impact on the animal population in the short to medium term I'd suggest.

We don't need to eat meat, but we are designed to be able to.

Designed, eh? Bringing ID into threads where it doesn't belong...

Joking apart and if not picking up on word choice I'd broadly agree as I'm sure you know, humans are omnivorous therefore there's a choice to be made if the person wishes. I don't think it's particularly hard to have a decent diet as a vegetarian but you do have to be a bit more careful than most people tend to be whatever their dietary preference - I'd argue though that it's about the level of effort (and thought) that people should be putting into their diet regardless of whether they eat a vegetarian or omnivorous diet to ensure that they are getting a reasonably healthy, balanced diet.

As for the general point in the thread about preaching - as a vegetarian I've had an awful lot of omnivores telling me why vegetarianism is unhealthy or why they choose to eat meat. Maybe it's a pre-emptive justification for a point that I'm never about to make but experience or society tells them that they need to make. Without meaning any particular disrespect to other peoples views - I just don't care why you've chosen to eat meat, that's your choice and I'm happy to respect that, I would however ask the same in return. I don't think being a vegetarian defines my character any more than being an omnivore defines someone elses character - if your diet is the most interesting thing about you then perhaps that's something to ponder on.

 

[platypus]

I changed to a mostly Vegan diet based around eating a lot of raw foods.

It's worked for me. I have more energy, I recover better, I feel better. Personally I think that giving up Dairy entirely is the biggest benefit from the research/reading I've been doing. We've never eaten much red meat as it is.

 

[elmarko]

As for the general point in the thread about preaching - as a vegetarian I've had an awful lot of omnivores telling me why vegetarianism is unhealthy or why they choose to eat meat. Maybe it's a pre-emptive justification for a point that I'm never about to make but experience or society tells them that they need to make. Without meaning any particular disrespect to other peoples views - I just don't care why you've chosen to eat meat, that's your choice and I'm happy to respect that, I would however ask the same in return. I don't think being a vegetarian defines my character any more than being an omnivore defines someone elses character - if your diet is the most interesting thing about you then perhaps that's something to ponder on.

I complete agree.

I've swayed between vegetarianism, veganism & pescetarianism over the years & the one thing I noticed was a constant over the top justifications & ridiculous criticisms (IE, some burger & chocolate chomping fatso having the nerve to start preaching about the dangers of a plant based diet).

Ironically I've never once preached my own views on the matter, but even if you don't mention it you still get loads of dumb questions when you select an obviously vegetarian option in a menu.

In my experience guilty meat eaters are the worst of the lot (due to the reaction formation aspect).

The simple fact is we all draw our lines in the sand at difference places, while others may be more ethical when it comes to food consumption, others are political or socially - it's a case of picking your own battles & sticking to whatever principles you may hold dear to yourself.

I changed to a mostly Vegan diet based around eating a lot of raw foods.

It's worked for me. I have more energy, I recover better, I feel better. Personally I think that giving up Dairy entirely is the biggest benefit from the research/reading I've been doing. We've never eaten much red meat as it is.

Indeed, I feel much better since making the switch myself.

I admit it's quite difficult maintaining a high protein intake for weight lifting, but it's not impossible - it just requires a little more time & effort into ensuring you have enough of a well balanced diet to make those gains.

 

[platypus]

I complete agree.

I've swayed between vegetarianism, veganism & pescetarianism over the years & the one thing I noticed was a constant over the top justifications & ridiculous criticisms (IE, some burger & chocolate chomping fatso having the nerve to start preaching about the dangers of a plant based diet).

Ironically I've never once preached my own views on the matter, but even if you don't mention it you still get loads of dumb questions when you select an obviously vegetarian option in a menu.

In my experience guilty meat eaters are the worst of the lot (due to the reaction formation aspect).

The simple fact is we all draw our lines in the sand at difference places, while others may be more ethical when it comes to food consumption, others are political or socially - it's a case of picking your own battles & sticking to whatever principles you may hold dear to yourself.

I haven't really had any preaching yet; indeed I spoke to my father in law at great length about our change in diet when we were on a long run in France (the reason I changed diet is for running). I told him about the research I've been doing, the books I've read, and he came out of that conversation determined to look into it himself, and since then my in laws have made a change. Nowhere near as drastic as we have but it's a good start I feel.

When we started the diet, we made sure to not push it onto other people, indeed I'll happily admit we ate meat at other peoples houses if we were going round for dinner, but I think now most people we know have learnt about what we're trying (we agreed to try it for a year as an initial test).

Indeed, I feel much better since making the switch myself.

I admit it's quite difficult maintaining a high protein intake for weight lifting, but it's not impossible - it just requires a little more time & effort into ensuring you have enough of a well balanced diet to make those gains.

I am supplementing a little with hemp and soy protein in a rice milk smoothie post a long run; again because of the research I've done - it's not impossible but it is genuinely difficult for me to eat as much protein as I need from truly natural sources!

I've lost weight (didn't need too but its good for my running and cycling), I feel like I'm running better than I ever have - I can't really scientifically explain it and admit its all empirical evidence but it feels like it's doing wonders for me. My weekly mileage is increasing regularly, and my recovery times are significantly better.

 

[James J]

I changed to a mostly Vegan diet based around eating a lot of raw foods.

It's worked for me. I have more energy, I recover better, I feel better. Personally I think that giving up Dairy entirely is the biggest benefit from the research/reading I've been doing. We've never eaten much red meat as it is.

But do you have to take dietary supplements to compliment your diet choice?

 

[Sliver]

I can't really scientifically explain it and admit its all circumstantial evidence but it feels like it's doing wonders for me. My weekly mileage is increasing regularly, and my recovery times are significantly better.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Freefaller]

Both extremes are as bad as each other. People with poor nutrition are the worse IMO.

You get meat eaters preaching, evangelistic vegetarians and vegans all of whom are 1st class bores.

As long as you're balanced and you're aware of your diet and its limitations and you make up for it adequately there's no need for a tit-for-tat approach to one upmanship in this sort of thing.

However where there's difference of opinions and beliefs there will always be conflict. It is the way of the world.

For weight lifting or any sort of sporting activity to get the calories, fats and protein in that your body needs as a vegetarian does require more thought and effort but it is entirely feasible to get 150g+ of protein daily, you just have to put the research in.

Cutting out dairy makes it even more challenging, but it is still possible. Personally I'll stick to my meat protein and keep dairy to a minimum but enjoy my eggs too (16 or so a week) and kilo of nuts, oily fish but I could live without red meat - I'd miss it... but I'd struggle a LOT without that.

 

[platypus]

Fixed that for you.

No you blithely and selectively quoted my post in an attempt to be funny. Which you weren't.

 

[platypus]

But do you have to take dietary supplements to compliment your diet choice?

I don't have to, no. I choose to after the more extreme activities I do.

 

[Sliver]

No you blithely and selectively quoted my post in an attempt to be funny. Which you weren't.

Calm down grumpy. Your use of the word empirical was out of context with the sentence you used it in.

If you're going to spit your dummy out every time someone politely corrects you, then maybe you stop posting on the internet.

 

[platypus]

You popped into a thread with no intention of adding anything useful to the subject other than using the FTFY quoting "trick". This is not polite. It's lazy and tedious.

 

[Sliver]

Using the FTFY quoting "trick" isn't polite. It's lazy and tedious.

Well pardon me all over the place ! How rude of me to point out an error. From now on I'll just tell everyone what a great guy you are.

 

[Jakeee]

If you're going to spit your dummy out every time someone politely corrects you, then maybe you stop posting on the internet.

The end.

 

[Tuppy_Glossop]

Well pardon me all over the place ! How rude of me to point out an error. From now on I'll just tell everyone what a great guy you are.

Except it is, of course, anecdotal evidence. We are not in a court of law

 

[James J]

I don't have to, no. I choose to after the more extreme activities I do.

Interesting. I've got a balanced diet of meat, veg and fruit, so don't take supplements, but I don't know the in's and out's of having a meat free diet, so want to know how it can affect your choices on food. How do you calculate what you should actually eat then based on activities that require you to boost your intake of vitamins and protein etc?

Plus, 16 eggs per week @ freefaller!?!?!?!?!?! Thats 96g of fat. Crazy man

 

[Energize]

You know you have little to no argument when you attack the research/evidence rather than produce your own that refutes it.

That is comedy gold, scrutinizing the published research is the very foundation of science.

 

[kwerk]

In 100 years we'll look back at meat eating the same way we look at the holocaust today.

 

[Freefaller]

Interesting. I've got a balanced diet of meat, veg and fruit, so don't take supplements, but I don't know the in's and out's of having a meat free diet, so want to know how it can affect your choices on food. How do you calculate what you should actually eat then based on activities that require you to boost your intake of vitamins and protein etc?

Plus, 16 eggs per week @ freefaller!?!?!?!?!?! Thats 96g of fat. Crazy man

You forgot the kilo of nuts too

What's wrong with all that fat?