Trading the stockmarket (NO Referrals)

Good post Jonny, interesting to get perspective from someone in the industry professionally rather than us 'average investors'.

I've only been experimenting for the last month and a half so I'm well aware of how green and inexperienced I am.

Having said that, I feel I've learnt a lot in a short space or time and am still eager to keep going.

I'm taking every loss as the price paid for a 'lesson' and every win as a bit of 'luck over judgement'.

If I ever get to the stage where I'm dropping £20k on one trade alone I'll consider myself to be in an extraordinary position!

Interesting point about TA… I've already seen how Level 2 can make a difference to trading decisions and how L2 combined with intraday trade info and historic charts can influence forward predictions.

However, I'm well aware that knowing where the SP has been and where it 'could' go in the very near future basically means nothing more than an educated guess.

As you say, it's uncanny how often prices rise or fall when they hit moving average lines or historic support / resistance. On the other hand, if prices never broke out then SPs would never change so it's swings and roundabouts.
 
This was posted on the QPP board on iii.co.uk. I found it extremely instructive. Long(ish) post so I'll spoiler it:

Those of us who have traditionally invested in small cap AIM listed stocks are familiar with the SEAQ trading system, where the share trader/investor buys from and sells to a market maker, via his stockbroker. The market maker is the middleman. His job is to do exactly as his name suggests - make a market. Without a market maker, if you wanted to buy some shares, you would have to ring around other shareholders and find one willing to sell to you at a reasonable price. If you wanted to sell you would have to find a willing buyer.

But the market makers relieve investors from such drudgery by providing a point at which - within specified limits set by the LSE - we can buy or sell as many shares as we wish. If the market maker doesn't have any shares, then it's up to him to find some when we want to buy. He is also obliged to take in shares, even if he has more than he really wants, if we wish to sell. This exposes market makers to risk, and in return for shouldering that risk, market makers expect to be paid. Their payment is the difference between the price they are willing to sell at and the price they are willing to buy at.

In any one stock there will usually be several market makers. Each will have his own set of buy and sell prices. For the purpose of deciding what price investors can buy or sell at, all prices from the individual market makers are set alongside each other, and the "best" price rules. i.e. the lowest "offer" (the price at which the MM will sell shares to you) and the highest "bid" (the price at which the MM is prepared to buy shares from you). The gap between the two prices, often quite large, is known as the "spread" and the so-called "mid" price is halfway between them.

When an investor buys or sells stock from/to a market maker, the transaction is reported to the stock exchange. Each transaction is, of course, both buy and sell. You are the buyer or seller, and the market maker is the other party in the transaction. However, only one trade report is required. The transaction reports are published by the stock exchange with a trade type of O, and services such as ADVFN,iii and MoneyAM, who have a "feed" of information from the exchange, will list the transactions on their Monitor/Watchlist and Trades pages. Some years back, all the online services thought it would be a good idea to attempt to list these transactions as buys or sells, and devised a guesstimate system - if a transaction is executed at a price above the mid-price, it is placed into the buy column. If executed below the mid-price it is placed in the sell column.

Now, unless trading is intense and prices moving rapidly, these buy/sell columns are fairly accurate, and represent a reasonable estimate of the amount of buying/selling BY investors FROM/TO the market makers. Some large trades which are multiples of the Average Daily Turnover are published up to three days after execution, which can distort the numbers. (See the LSE website for the post-MIFID parameters re: the new reporting regime.) But by and large they enable a reasonable overview of supply and demand.
So that's SEAQ. Love it or hate it and its big spreads, most punters are familiar with it and some even understand how it works. You could describe it as "the devil you know"!

In the meantime, on the main market, for the big boys, there has been another trading system. Known as SETS - the Stock Exchange Electronic Trading Service - it was introduced at Big Bang time in 1997, when the LSE moved from its traditional trading floor, where brokers and market makers met in the flesh to do their deals, to an automated system run by computers. Used for the trading of shares in large companies with high liquidity (i.e. lots of buying/selling activity) SETS cuts out the middleman.

In simple terms, those who have access to the SETS order book and have shares for sale will enter a sell order on to the book. Those who wish to buy will enter a buy order into the order book. The system will automatically match up buyers and sellers who match on price - often one large order will be matched up with several smaller orders on the "other side". The matched orders are removed from the book, and a transaction is executed between buyer and seller. Again, each transaction is both buy and sell, and again, only one transaction report is required. These automated trades have a trade type of AT.

The LSE recently decided, in its wisdom, to extend the SETS system to less frequently traded shares, and to ensure permanent liquidity, they combined the SETS order book with the continuous liquidity provided by firm two-way quotes from market makers. The result is SETSmm - "or the devil we don't yet recognise!"

SETSmm is gradually being extended further and further down the liquidity rankings, and now there are many AIM stocks - mostly those with market caps that are, or have been, £100 million or more - traded on the SETSmm system. More recently, post-MIFID, the parameters of SETSmm have been extended to the entire SETS system - thus providing liquidity via the order book AND firm two-way quotes from market makers across all stocks, even the FTSE 100.

And thereby lies the rub. Private investors used to SEAQ are finding it difficult to get to grips with SETSmm, and many do not even realise it is now a dual system: a SETS order-book driven system supported by firm quotes from MMs, running in parallel with a SEAQ-like off-order-book system.

The way it works is this:

Those with Direct Market Access can - and do - enter buy and sell orders at specified prices on the relevant side of the SETS order book. Orders on each side of the book are listed by price, with the best at the top, and where there is more than one order at a given price, in order of the time the order was placed. Orders are matched against each other using these priorities. Order matching and trade execution, followed by the single transaction report, are carried out exactly as per SETS. However, because there may not be sufficient activity on the order book in the less liquid stocks to enable a fair price to be set and to enable trading on demand, MMs also show their firm quotes on the order book. Their "buy orders" and "sell orders" - familiar to us from SEAQ as the volume and price at which they are each prepared to trade - are treated the same as any other orders, except that their ID code is placed alongside their orders, whereas other orders are anonymous.

Where buyers and their brokers do not have access to the order book, shares are bought and sold away from the order book using the familiar investor-broker-market maker chain as under SEAQ.

All well and good. The trouble starts when the transaction feed from the LSE hits any of the online services used by most retail investors. We have described above how each transaction carried out on or off the order book is both a buy and a sell, for which only a single trade report is required.

Trades with a type of O are the same as they have always been - an off-order book transaction between an investor and a market maker. As such, each individual trade can be said to represent a buy by an investor or a sell by an investor.

But AT trades, as we have just seen, are trades directly between buyers and sellers, without the intermediary of the middle-man. So what are they? The online services will tell you they are buys or sells, depending on whether the execution price was above or below the current mid-price. But in fact, they are neither one nor the other - they are BOTH. Hence the way AT trades are treated by all of the online services such as ADVFN, MoneyAM and iii is misleading, both in terms of total volume and in terms of buy/sell balance.

Let's try an example.

I want to buy 50,000 shares in Acme Widgets Ltd. You want to sell 25,000 shares. Your wife also wants to sell 25,000 shares. Our brokers do not have direct access to the order book, so when we have placed our orders with our brokers, they approach the market makers and get us quotes, which we accept. The transactions are then executed. My buy will generate a trade report. Your sell, and that of your wife, will each generate a trade report. All will have a trade type of "O". We will see on our monitor or watchlist a total volume of 100,000 shares, 50,000 buys and 2 x 25,000 sells.

Now suppose we all have direct market access via our broker, and can instruct him to place our buy and sell orders direct on the order book. Let's say the current price is 24 - 25p. I want these shares quite badly, so I am willing to pay up to 24.5p and my buy order goes on to the book with a limit price of 24.5p, and becomes the new "best price". Your sell order, and your wife's sell order, both go into the sell column "at best". My buy order of 50,000 is matched against your two 25,000 sell orders. A trade is executed and a trade report generated showing a trade type of AT. The trade report will be for 50,000 shares at 24.5p.

When that transaction hits the online services it will probably be put in the buy column, as my "best price" of 24.5p has now been taken out, and "best" is back to 24p. We will now see total volume of 50,000 shares, all buys.

As you can see, although we have all bought and sold exactly the same numbers of shares in each scenario, what we see on our PC screens is only telling half the story re: the AT trades which have been executed on the order book. In these circumstances, it's not surprising that traders and shareholders used to the SEAQ system are misleading themselves ? and therefore putting themselves at a serious trading disadvantage - about (a) total volumes and (b) buy vs sell activity as shown on ADVFN, MoneyAM, iii etc.

There is little that the online services can do about it, to be honest. Although they could ensure that all AT trades were automatically placed in the ??? column to differentiate them from the O trades.

In the meantime, for every AT trade that appears in the buy or sell column on any watchlist or monitor, it's vital to remember that there is an equal and opposing volume in the opposite column. O trades do represent a fair picture of buying and selling by investors. AT trades only show the half of it! Literally.
 
If I ever get to the stage where I'm dropping £20k on one trade alone I'll consider myself to be in an extraordinary position! .

that's because royally f#cked it up. That was on banking stocks. RBS used to be £4 at one point, we all piled in when it went to £2.50, lost money, went to £1.20, tried to recuperate and dropped to 10p. Lost a lot of my savings, but learnt my lesson big time. That's why I am out of that game :rolleyes:

Its not just me, lots of others got royally shafted too.

The real value in financial trading is not the actual value, its the perception of value. Look at bitcoins, does it have any real purpose?

The golden rule of finance is that for every pound you take out of the market, someone else losses it. Its the guys in the middle that take the cut.

As regards technical analysis, there is of sell fulfilling prophecies, people look for patterns and try to second guess what everyone else will do. Doesn't mean you can't make money, just means you are in a game and you have to be better at others at it.

Some times I think spread trading can be great. For example, remember BP polluted half the ocean years ago, that stock price was only going one way, although it was hard to actually get a trade done at that time. No-one wanted the other side of the trade.
 
In the short term its zero sum perhaps but business are supposed to produce money so it should not be otherwise

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/z/zero-sumgame.asp

options and futures are examples of zero-sum games, excluding transaction costs. For every person who gains on a contract, there is a counter-party who loses. However, the stock market is not a zero-sum game. AIm shares are worse then zero


RBS was a good trade from 10 or 20 even upto 42 that same year I think. Topped at 56 and wavered ever since. Just reporting a profit now I think, no taxes so might even be a goer
I had some from 200 :o

BP was a developing situation, it really fell only after they stumbled turning off the oil. 11 people dying was known immediately and sadly no big deal to a multi national share price though Im still not sure if corners cut deliberately is correct or it was bad luck from excessive methane

RBS was obviously a screwup and I should have read the details (takeovers etc) and known that, hopefully I would now
 
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Its not just me, lots of others got royally shafted too.

The real value in financial trading is not the actual value, its the perception of value. Look at bitcoins, does it have any real purpose?

I'm probably one of them people who got shafted.. I lost over £40k :(

I made a lot of money in 2009 when the AIM market was going crazy then the bottom fell out in 2011 and I got greedy. I was doing over £10k per trade and was making a few £K a day. Back then company value was based on future potential. A good RNS would send the SP rocketing over 60%+ instantly, a thing that your rarely so now.

Since being burnt I now mainly just watch and don't invest "gamble".
 
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Nasty stuff, would be good to carry losses forward 6 years like a business can so no tax.
I have generally sold up for cash, kept profits live. Which in the case of RRL was just as well but not nearly cautious enough, selling all at 20p would have been nicer. Profits are for covering losses, its all deceptive.

I heard one quote recently, the thirds rule. A Third of your trade will be profit, third is loss and a third will be wasted/idling, stopped out and this is how its done allegedly!



ATK has risen from its low, I should have jumped on it (my order was 10p off) but this is hard to do when u get 100% gain. it could be cheap anyhow


Not a fan of gov regs but is this really surprising if this scenario transpires - is it for sure QPP would benefit? if so then why so much doubt
The technology will soon be fitted in new cars as standard. Under EU regulations, all new cars will need black box-style technology, known as eCall, from October 2015, to help emergency services find crashed vehicles.
http://www.scoop.it/t/aim-market-gossip
Quindell RAC goes live with SSP Select Contact Centre
http://goo.gl/uEkyq8
Today, 1:37 PM
The RAC, the UK’s most progressive motoring organisation, has successfully deployed SSP Select Contact Centre, SSP’s specialist high-volume personal lines contact centre broking solution.

I know someone in insurance brokering but no news, I have no real detail :/
 
I bet some professionals just made an absolute bucket shorting AstraZeneca. Opened -650pts down.

On that subject I got up early to trade on it. Saw the news that the final offer was rejected and knew they'd plummet. However come 2 minutes past 8 AZN still wasn't moving. Is that the LSE or my platform blocking spread bets, or blocking public trades in general?

Also ABF at its 52w hight again and EZJ coming up from one of its recent lows. Both my SB tips!
 
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There is a definite class system to the brokers used. Most times it doesnt matter but sometimes its vital.

Some people can deal before 8am, it aint no democracy thats for sure. However its usually the people throwing many millions around that get that kind of deal and the argument is they are the liquidity and backbone of a healthy market.

On the day the FTSE rose 10% in its first minute, 2008. I wasnt allowed or even given a quote till about 11am. Just too many big dogs taking up all the space I guess.
Luckily it didnt go down so didnt matter


QPP price rose but its not looking strong especially. Low now is a shelf then 19.25

I like that BP is taking off a bit, please dont be another fake. Not really strong either - volume just isnt beating previous selling or down days but its hard to aproximate. It looks a ton better then QPP though, I'll mostly hold off till 15p still

CNR looks bad. AZN is bullish still
 
On the day the FTSE rose 10% in its first minute, 2008. I wasnt allowed or even given a quote till about 11am. Just too many big dogs taking up all the space I guess.
Luckily it didnt go down so didnt matter

Sounds more like a naff broker. 'Too many big dogs taking up all the space' doesn't make any sense... an exchange is just a bunch of servers in a data centre, orders are handled acording to set rules - usually on a first in first out basis, an increase in volume might increase latency a bit. If you couldn't even get quotes or place a trade then unless the exchange itself was down then the issue is with your broker being really naf, they presumably had some IT issues with whatever web interface they make available for retail customers, you should perhaps change brokers, having a large account or not doesn't have to affect how you access an exchange.
 
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Short SAB Miller on todays results, target low 20's (currently mid 30's). Results were good, jumping up 4.5% to give a good short opportunity. Not shorting on bad results per say as could be inferred.

Could take a year to get there, December earliest.

Also long Fresnillo, 1st target £14 odd, currently just over £8.
 
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I was shorting Mothercare since Monday — only £5/pp but yesterday I was up £40 — I didn't expect the results announced today to have such a positive impact on the SP!

I had a stop loss set under my initial entry point so I thought I was safe but I should have set a guaranteed stop. Ended up down £16… could have been worse though considering it's up 25 points today. :eek:

BLNX starting to rise. Into the 80's now so finally broke the 78 resistance :)

Certainly hope this is a real recovery but I'm fully expecting it to drop again in the near future. :p

Great that it's broken the 20sma but now looks like it's stuck around 80 – if it can break the 50sma at 87 and then things will definitely be looking up.

Fingers crossed we see some more positive action this afternoon when the US opens.
 
40 top for sab perhaps, not looking that bad.
MTC does look bad, seems like it'd continue down, 165-180

CNR I thought looked not good, not worth trying and its up 9% today
FRES Im not that enthusiastic about, wait till gold goes up. But I do own it :/ 900 top
BLNX does not appear strong, I would not guess it'd go past 80-90
AMA is the miner I think might be stronger then the price but not sure if facts back that

FXPO looks better then it should, arent they going to war soon. Though the mines are central not east afaik
APF graph I think backs my buy of them. Declining volume and price since Feb
GKP just looks washed out, shouldnt have bothered buying not short term anyway
CNA looks strong and dont think they had good news really

Sounds more like a naff broker.

I did change brokers but at the time they were all doing the same. No live dealing as such, you could submit an order, now my broker doesnt charge for orders which is good

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