Why 'Watch Dogs' Is Bad News For AMD Users -- And Potentially The Entire PC Gaming Ecosystem

[andybird123]

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...opers-weigh-in-on-the-gameworks-controversy/4



Mantle gives AMD a competitive advantage, yes, Because it improves performance. Does it have the potential to have a negative impact on Nvidia GPU's / users? No, it has nothing to do with DirectX or Nvidia. Nvidia cannot be affected by it.

GW Gives Nvidia a competitive advantage through added features, Does it have the potential to have a negative impact on AMD GPU's / users? Yes. the GW libraries are a part of the game for both Nvidia and AMD while only Nvidia have full access putting AMD at a potential disadvantage.

This is not entirely true, if a dev signs up to mantle they are comitting time to implementing mantle, which will mean some time taken away from DX optimisation/bug fixing, same as with gameworks, there is nothing about adding a library that should negatively impact AMD's performance, but clearly signing up to work with nvidia is potentially going to skew performance results and can mean that less time is spent on AMD specific optimisation - this is nothing new, devs havebeen working with AMD and Nvidia for donkeys and there have always been games that perform marginally better on the sponsors hardware

The direct performance difference a library imparts is only when that library is actively being called, so turn off HBAO+ in game, that library is effectively no longer "part of the game" so the performance impact of that library is negated

The point Ikeep trying to make, along with Sin is that both tools are just marketing, neither AMD nor nvidia give a rats arse about "gamers" beyond how much money they can make, AMD are spinning things off as whiteknighting for gamers, but the truth is thet want to sell more product

 

[ubersonic]

Ubersonic /snip

I wasn't saying the article was anti-Nvidia just that the tone was pro-AMD, to pick one example:

the GameWorks program has the potential to shift the industry towards a development and optimization model that’s closer to the Nvidia way of doing business than the AMD equivalent. AMD, with its emphasis on standards compliance and collaborative effort, believes this is a bad thing.

Where was the need to add that? the sentence works just fine without blowing smoke up AMD's behind or trying to paint them as the white knight, in fact it works even better without the bolded words as it removes bias :S

---------------------------------------------------------------------




Another thing was that while the were answers given by devs the wasn't much reading into the meaning of what were blatantly politically loaded answers, I.E:

Are Mantle and GameWorks just different ways of securing a competitive advantage?

AMD: No.

Nvidia: No.

Developers say: No.

All three give the same political answer yet it's obvious none mean the same thing, in a politically loaded argument it pays to read into what's being said:

Are Mantle and GameWorks just different ways of securing a competitive advantage?

AMD: No, that rubbish can't be compared to the awesomeness we have created, our masterpiece is totally different.

Nvidia: No, that rubbish can't be compared to the awesomeness we have created, our masterpiece is totally different.

Developers say: Of course, any unbiased eyes can see that, but the is absolutely No way we're getting involved in debating this political hot potato.

 

[Gregster]

A few guys here keep telling me that Mantle is far better than DX and leaves nVidia standing in tests, so this in turn would allow Mantle games to be turned up to 11 on the IQ and this in turn gives AMD a massive advantage over nVidia.

Game runs at 50 fps with this higher IQ on a 290X but only 40 fps on a 780Ti - Anything wrong with that? nVidia would have to tone down settings to get playable frames, so as I see it, GW and Mantle both have their detrimental possibilities to the competition.

Maybe I should write an article on this and repeat it enough times so that everyone starts to listen.

 

[eddyr]

Sure but for an accurate and unbiased presentation also include in your article that while both Mantle and GW would result in either AMD or Nvidia performing better than the other. One approach raises the IQ bar of whats possible by using a more effective alternative API, while the other maintains the status quo and potentially reduces the IQ their competitor is capable of achieving.

In an ideal world they would collaborate and we get the best of both approaches, advancement of the industry and more easily implementable pretties for titles.

 

[Gregster]

Sure but for an accurate and unbiased presentation also include in your article that while both Mantle and GW would result in either AMD or Nvidia performing better than the other. One approach raises the IQ bar of whats possible by using a more effective alternative API, while the other maintains the status quo and potentially reduces the IQ their competitor is capable of achieving.

In an ideal world they would collaborate and we get the best of both approaches, advancement of the industry and more easily implementable pretties for titles.

If DX was so bad, there is OpenGL, which both AMD and nVidia could have worked on together to get right, so I tend to look out of the box and the mud slinging from one to the other is fine as far as I am concerned but people need to stand away and see that neither side is doing it for the love but to make money.

 

[tommybhoy]

We all get they are both in it for the money greg, mantle has zero impact in hampering Nvidia performance-it cannot happen in any shape or form,impossible to the highest degree.

GW has/had the potential to impact on competitors performance from the off-a fundamental difference.

But you all know that.

 

[Gregster]

We all get they are both in it for the money greg, mantle has zero impact in hampering Nvidia performance-it cannot happen in any shape or form,impossible to the highest degree.

GW has/had the potential to impact on competitors performance from the off-a fundamental difference.

But you all know that.

All these articles are is "could" and I see Mantle the same. Sorry but there is nothing in GW that "Has", so it is all if's ands, and maybe's.

 

[Marine-RX179]

A few guys here keep telling me that Mantle is far better than DX and leaves nVidia standing in tests, so this in turn would allow Mantle games to be turned up to 11 on the IQ and this in turn gives AMD a massive advantage over nVidia.

Game runs at 50 fps with this higher IQ on a 290X but only 40 fps on a 780Ti - Anything wrong with that? nVidia would have to tone down settings to get playable frames, so as I see it, GW and Mantle both have their detrimental possibilities to the competition.

Maybe I should write an article on this and repeat it enough times so that everyone starts to listen.

It baffles me that people keep comparing GameWorks to Mantle, when the approach is completely different

To put it into illustration:

Mantle:
DX is the biggest club in town with the front door opened to all both Nvidia and AMD (users) can come and go as they please. AMD then decide to open a Mantle club in town which welcomes AMD users (for now) to try and experience something different should they choose to do so, and if they like, they are welcomed to stay. Experience at the DX club would remain unchanged for both AMD and Nvidia users.

GameWorks:
DX is the biggest club in town with the front door that's supposed to be opened to all both Nvidia and AMD can come and go as they please...yet Nvidia decide that they have the right to employ club bouncers of their own accord and place it at the front door of the DX club, and body-search and ID-check everything single AMD users before letting them in, and bodyguards of AMD users are restricted from entering the club; Nvidia users on the other hand can just walk straight in without search or check along with their bodyguards. So whilst both AMD and Nvidia users "have access" to the DX club, there's not doubt the AMD would have a poorer experience than Nvidia users.

Bottomline is...if Nvidia want to provide GW and unique experience for Nvidia users? Fine, just don't block the entire entrance and allow AMD users to get straight through into the DX club without forcing them to get through the GW queue, considering GW is for Nvidia users afterall, not AMD users.

 

[Gregster]

I am not comparing but using a scenario where Mantle "Could" harm nVidia. The same as GW "Could" harm AMD.

 

[tommybhoy]

Everyone knows that marine, it's the same spin over and over.

Check out all the brand defenders in here. You would think it was a family member lmfao

It's funny now.

 

[AlamoX]

I am not comparing but using a scenario where Mantle "Could" harm nVidia. The same as GW "Could" harm AMD.

there is no scenario where AMD Could sabotage Nvidia with Mantle
there is a way for Nvidia to sabotage AMD with Gameworks
here greg i made it clear for you
if by harming you mean techs that boost perf optimise or whatever, no probleme that's fair, but when you are telling AMD can Trust Nvidia to not sabotage their performance, then thats lack of common sens, especialy that AMD have no way to check the blackbox, and even if a dev have access he doesnt have the expertise on the architecture to spot the issue, and by contract he is under NDA to not show AMD the gamework code, and there is no way AMD would get the licence from Nvidia, because even if we are talking about price, Nvidia would put a riddiculous one for AMD just because it's their main competitor that without them they might as well make it open, so AMD will have to pay Nvidia for the potential licences for gameworks lifetime...
and comparing that to Mantle where AMD have no way to sabotage at all, since nvidia doesnt even run on the same version of the game, like AMD does on gameworks... this is the issue
i hope you get the difference i see.

 

[TheRealDeal]

Everyone knows that marine, it's the same spin over and over.



It's funny now.

Nvidia have c4 inside his Titans which will be detenated if he admits to understanding the difference.

 

[Gregster]

there is no scenario where AMD Could sabotage Nvidia with Mantle
there is a way for Nvidia to sabotage AMD with Gameworks
here greg i made it clear for you
if by harming you mean techs that boost perf optimise or whatever, no probleme that's fair, but when you are telling AMD can Trust Nvidia to not sabotage their performance, then thats lack of common sens, especialy that AMD have no way to check the blackbox, and even if a dev have access he doesnt have the expertise on the architecture to spot the issue

Of course there is. Here is a potential scenario.

AMD pays Dice to use Mantle in their next big game and they make sure that tons of work is done on the CPU. This will make Mantle run far better on GCN, while nVidia would generally be bottlenecked for the majority (Mantle is far more efficient with the CPU over DX). This allows GCN cards to run at higher frames, whilst nVidia will have problems because of the bottleneck.

That is a "Could" and is exactly what is going on with all these articles. nVidia "Could" do this and that.

Nvidia have c4 inside his Titans which will be detenated if he admits to understanding the difference.

Hahahaha

 

[AlamoX]

Of course there is. Here is a potential scenario.

AMD pays Dice to use Mantle in their next big game and they make sure that tons of work is done on the CPU. This will make Mantle run far better on GCN, while nVidia would generally be bottlenecked for the majority (Mantle is far more efficient with the CPU over DX). This allows GCN cards to run at higher frames, whilst nVidia will have problems because of the bottleneck.

That is a "Could" and is exactly what is going on with all these articles. nVidia "Could" do this and that.



Hahahaha

the game run on 2 different versions, 2 codes, let's say that Dice wants to see how far they can push perf and quality of the game and start by Mantle version, once they code DX, they have to abide by the limit of DX and reduce the draw calls for exemple, this is not a realistic scenario, if you want "what if's"
what if Nvidia pays Dice to run their game worst on Mantle by pushing over the limit of the API.
you are being unreasonable, i think ppl explained enough the difference, and i think you got it too but you are just jerking us around >.<

 

[Marine-RX179]

Everyone knows that marine, it's the same spin over and over.

And unfortunately knowing does not equal to understand the issues about it.

It's like trying to explain to some people in some part of India or China that taking a wee in public areas/on the streets is bad and explaining it again and again how it would cause hygiene and health problems and spread of diseases, but they still won't see there's a problem with it because everyone else is doing it...and they think it won't harm themselves anyway..."who cares if my wee would make someone else sick? I don't see no problem it doesn't hurt me in anyway".

 

[Martini1991]

the game run on 2 different versions, 2 codes, let's say that Dice wants to see how far they can push perf and quality of the game and start by Mantle version, once they code DX, they have to abide by the limit of DX and reduce the draw calls for exemple, this is not a realistic scenario, if you want "what if's"
what if Nvidia pays Dice to run their game worst on Mantle by pushing over the limit of the API.
you are being unreasonable, i think ppl explained enough the difference, and i think you got it too but you are just jerking us around >.<

Well, now you're just making stuff up aren't you?

Take RTW2 , runs like crap on DX11, would run MUCH better on GCN, so AMD would have a distinct advantage.

 

[Gregster]

the game run on 2 different versions, 2 codes, let's say that Dice wants to see how far they can push perf and quality of the game and start by Mantle version, once they code DX, they have to abide by the limit of DX and reduce the draw calls for exemple, this is not a realistic scenario, if you want "what if's"
what if Nvidia pays Dice to run their game worst on Mantle by pushing over the limit of the API.
you are being unreasonable, i think ppl explained enough the difference, and i think you got it too but you are just jerking us around >.<

The whole GW articles that Joel writes are "What if's" and at no time have nVidia purposefully aimed to harm AMD performance, so it is fine to talk what if's for nVidia but if I do the same to AMD, that isn't?

Come on guys, even AMD admit that nVidia have not tried to harm AMD performance but Joel seems to be hung up on the fact that they could if they wanted to....

 

[AlamoX]

Well, now you're just making stuff up aren't you?

Take RTW2 , runs like crap on DX11, would run MUCH better on GCN, so AMD would have a distinct advantage.

yes rome II runs like crap because of DX11 as you said, if it had Mantle it would run better for GCN as you said, just because DX11 is crap, not because AMD is sabotaging Nvidia.
thx martini that was a perfect exemple for gregster

 

[Gregster]

yes rome II runs like crap because of DX11 as you said, if it had Mantle it would run better for GCN as you said, just because DX11 is crap, not because AMD is sabotaging Nvidia.
thx martini that was a perfect exemple for gregster

Have nVidia sabotaged AMD?

I will do this in small steps.

 

[AlamoX]

The whole GW articles that Joel writes are "What if's" and at no time have nVidia purposefully aimed to harm AMD performance, so it is fine to talk what if's for nVidia but if I do the same to AMD, that isn't?

Come on guys, even AMD admit that nVidia have not tried to harm AMD performance but Joel seems to be hung up on the fact that they could if they wanted to....

well here is the issue, thats what i said, you take 2 competitors over % of performance, competitor A make a programme that forces the competiror B to use it, then deny access to the competitor B to the code to optimise it, and the main goal of that programme is to squeeze more performance.
the hardware of these 2 competitor appreciated by which one has the best perf, and mostly come to 5-10% difference.
when competitor B says man that programme prevent us from squeezing these % performance we need, while competitor A can squeeze as much as he wants, that goes to directly upset the balance and benchmarks if gameworks becomes wide spread in it's current idiotic implementation.
because it's NONSENS to ask competitor B to trust it's fate on the ethics and morals of competitor A, even if competitor A is an angel with bright wings, you just can't ask that from competitor B, and you certainly can't blame him for complaining, or raising awareness of the issue.
and you certainly can't compare gameworks to Mantle, you should consider Mantle as a New console, developers make game for PS4, xbx1,Mantle, and PC(dx), nvidia isnt harmed by ps4 because devs code the game for that console, the same goes for Mantle, if you wanna blame AMD for DX problemes , then blame sony for DX problemes, because devs share the time between all versions.