Gameworks, Mantle and a pot calling a kettle black

[pgi947]

Shocker, businesses create something to give them an advantage over the competition, everyone does it.

Does the company I work for share its tech with its rivals in the interest of benefitting the customer? God no. We use it to our advantage to gain customers and it works, well.

The number 1 interest of any company is making profit.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I think people tend to forget AMD is not a charity. Whereas I do think AMD as a whole as been better overall than Nvidia in the ways it has done things in many cases,Mantle is after all something they want to do to improve the competitive position overall as a whole company and gain more sales from competitors.

The same went with X64. Intel was not interested since they wanted to push Itanium(which ended up being a failure of sorts),so they could basically exclude much of the competition,but for AMD it made much more commercial sense to stay with X86(and basically modify it than come up with a new instruction set),but at least they did not exclude anyone.

 

[TheRealDeal]

There's a difference between a court of law and forum lawyers with unsubstantiated rumours.

Common sense to know that Nvidia sponsored games keep having problems on AMD hardware is all that i need to know and it's why people keep writing articles on it. If this was happening constantly the other way around there would be the same reaction. For some reason it does not seem to be the case.

 

[Gregster]

Common sense to know that Nvidia sponsored games keep having problems on AMD hardware is all that i need to know and it's why people keep writing articles on it. If this was happening constantly the other way around.

Do they?

Can you explain why I was having massive problems in Tomb Raider when that was launched? The same With BF4, the same with FarCry 3. So from your reasoning, it is down to AMD...

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Do they?

Can you explain why I was having massive problems in Tomb Raider when that was launched? The same With BF4, the same with FarCry 3. So from your reasoning, it is down to AMD...

Even AMD users were having issues at launch too with regards to TR,so much so the dev actually had to patch the game to change the way the hair interacted(at least this is what I gathered).

You do realise also that with BF3,DICE used NVAPI? It probably explains why the Nvidia GF110 cards ended up doing relatively well against the Tahiti based ones at launch,and months afterwards.

Not sure about BF4,but I thought that a fair lot of issues too?

 

[Orangey]

False equivalency is one of the hallmarks of a flawed argument.

Nvidia is worse, that's all I have to say.

 

[TheRealDeal]

Do they?

Can you explain why I was having massive problems in Tomb Raider when that was launched? The same With BF4, the same with FarCry 3. So from your reasoning, it is down to AMD...

You mean the same games where amd users were experiencing similar problems. Yea game bugs.

 

[PhysicsMan94]

Shocker, businesses create something to give them an advantage over the competition, everyone does it.

Does the company I work for share its tech with its rivals in the interest of benefitting the customer? God no. We use it to our advantage to gain customers and it works, well.

The number 1 interest of any company is making profit.

Indeed, the sooner that people realise both Nvidia and AMD have no interest in "the greater good", "charity" and all that crap, the better. They want our money, they will do anything (within reason) to gain an upper hand on competition to win our money. Simple as that. Business is business.

 

[Gregster]

Cat, lots of nVidia users are having problems with Watch Dogs. I had problems with Batman Arkham origins that required a fix from WB Montreal. TheRealDeal is speculating the issues are down to nVidia and not AMD... A blanket statement that is so wrong, it isn't even funny.

You mean the same games where amd users were experiencing similar problems. Yea game bugs.

So no nVidia users are having issues in nVidia sponsored games then?

 

[TheRealDeal]

Cat, lots of nVidia users are having problems with Watch Dogs. I had problems with Batman Arkham origins that required a fix from WB Montreal. TheRealDeal is speculating the issues are down to nVidia and not AMD... A blanket statement that is so wrong, it isn't even funny.



So no nVidia users are having issues in nVidia sponsored games then?

I expect Nvidia sponsored games to run better on there hardware and vice versa but the game breaking performance that has happened over the years on Nvidia sponsored games is just daft end of and nothing like what happens the other way around. Look at the benchmarks on this forum to see how well amd sponsored games run on Nvidia hardware. Batman at 8xmsaa is not even comparable as the majority of pc owners won't be doing that and are more likely to use fxaa.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

TBH,I have usually waited at least a few weeks before buying a game anyway,just to make sure any initial bugs are ironed out. Had issues with both Crysis and Metro:Last Light at launch which were annoying.

I think Bioshock:Infinite and D3 were the only recent major titles I actually got which seemed fine at launch,but TBH it was not like they were pushing technical boundaries,were they??

 

[Gregster]

I expect Nvidia sponsored games to run better on there hardware and vice versa but the game breaking performance that has happened over the years on Nvidia sponsored games is just daft end of and nothing like what happens the other way around. Look at the benchmarks on this forum to see how well amd sponsored games run on Nvidia hardware. batman at 8xaa is not even comparable as the majority of pc owners won't be doing that.

Can you show me some proof of this please? I have never heard before of nVidia doing anything to break the game for AMD users.

 

[TheRealDeal]

Can you show me some proof of this please? I have never heard before of nVidia doing anything to break the game for AMD users.

Is there any point it's been all over these forums since i joined. Trying to show you proof is a waste of my time and energy. If you have not seen any proof over the years what makes you think you will see any in me regurgitating the same info.

Waste of my time end of story.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Lol typical GM post. This is going off information a neutral party has put forward, game developers that work and optimize for both sides. It holds a lot more weight than anything AMD or Nvidia have to say. See my previous posts for what the score is. Not going to explain it to you again mate lol.

Mantle is a different code path to DX. Come on even you can't be that daft.

Neutral party? Says who? Joel? Who died and made him the sole voice of truth?
And if GameWorks is a different code path then the same applies.
Again, I think for this to be sabotage it means that AMD GPU are forced to run GameWorks (i.e. can't turn the options off) AND that GameWorks treats AMD cards differently to Nvidia cards. If it's just a case that Nvidia are better able to optimise for the code in their own libraries than AMD then I can't see how this is an issue.

So what we need are neutral parties, that have used GameWorks and have seen the GameWorks source code, to tell us if there is a separate path for AMD users that purposely harms AMD performance. Anything less than that seems to be to be AMD (or it's users) trying to make themselves look like victims to gain sympathy.

Even AMD users were having issues at launch too with regards to TR,so much so the dev actually had to patch the game to change the way the hair interacted(at least this is what I gathered).

You do realise also that with BF3,DICE used NVAPI? It probably explains why the Nvidia GF110 cards ended up doing relatively well against the Tahiti based ones at launch,and months afterwards.

Not sure about BF4,but I thought that a fair lot of issues too?

You mean the same games where amd users were experiencing similar problems. Yea game bugs.

You mean like Nvidia users suffering poor performance in Watch Dogs and the like? But in this case it's not game bugs it's sabotage?

 

[Farseer]

But if true Gameworks does effect amd users, where mantle don't effect nvidia users at all.

So based on this alone they are completely different.

Am not saying it's true about Gameworks not read enough proof for me to say. But based on what I have said how can they be the same?

Unless Mantle requires zero development time to implement, nvidia users will be affected. Developers only have a finite amount of time publishers are willing to give them for creating a game, game engine dependant, don't you think Mantle will eat into that time instead of optimising directx or opengl thus harming the performance for nvidia?

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Can you show me some proof of this please? I have never heard before of nVidia doing anything to break the game for AMD users.

I know Ubisoft did something dodgy a few years ago. The original AC had a DX10.1 patch which did improve performance on AMD cards(Nvidia had no DX10.1 parts at the time).

However,it magically disappeared soon after,with them citing some bugs. The thing is websites did try and find the said bugs,and AFAIK never found them. Then there was the Crysis2 over tessellation fiasco. It was purported by some to be more convenient coding for the game,but it also hit AMD cards the worse.

Its hard to prove Nvidia did any of it TBF,but some of it seemed a tad too convenient!

 

[TheRealDeal]

Neutral party? Says who? Joel? Who died and made him the sole voice of truth?
And if GameWorks is a different code path then the same applies.
Again, I think for this to be sabotage it means that AMD GPU are forced to run GameWorks (i.e. can't turn the options off) AND that GameWorks treats AMD cards differently to Nvidia cards. If it's just a case that Nvidia are better able to optimise for the code in their own libraries than AMD then I can't see how this is an issue.

So what we need are neutral parties, that have used GameWorks and have seen the GameWorks source code, to tell us if there is a separate path for AMD users that purposely harms AMD performance. Anything less than that seems to be to be AMD (or it's users) trying to make themselves look like victims to gain sympathy.





You mean like Nvidia users suffering poor performance in Watch Dogs and the like? But in this case it's not game bugs it's sabotage?

Watchdogs is not something i think is conclusive yet the whole internet has it running far better on Nvidia. Amd frame times 3 times as bad compared to nvidia. It's another gameworks title and runs far worse on amd according to journalists. It is a ubisoft game though and i would be willing to say its down to that but it is another title where amd can't match the NV experience even when NV gpu's are not putting out a stellar experience.

 

[Rusty0611]

Is there any point it's been all over these forums since i joined. Trying to show you proof is a waste of my time and energy. If you have not seen any proof over the years what makes you think you will see any in me regurgitating the same info.

Waste of my time end of story.

Nadda then.

As I said, it's just unsubstantiated rumours. You throw enough mud and some sticks.

It's similar to the general perception held by a lot of people that AMD drivers are rubbish. Is it true? Probably not - there's no real proof. It's just the same kind of unsubstantiated rubbish which gets perpetuated as fact similar to what you're saying.

Watchdogs is not something i think is conclusive yet the whole internet has it running far better on Nvidia. Amd frame times 3 times as bad compared to nvidia. It's another gameworks title and runs far worse on amd according to journalists. It is a ubisoft game though and i would be willing to say its down to that.

Where do you draw the line at the game developer and the driver developers though? Basically, depending on where your bias lies you choose either the game developer or the driver developer. I know where your bias lies. Sane people don't really make a call either way as it's impossible to prove. All you can do is draw conclusions based on your own internal extrapolation which can be flawed.

It's funny you made the court of law comparison earlier because some of the fallacious arguments I read on this subject (and not necessarily just your good self) wouldn't even stand up in a 10 pint pub discussion never mind a court of law.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Unless Mantle requires zero development time to implement, nvidia users will be affected. Developers only have a finite amount of time publishers are willing to give them for creating a game, game engine dependant, don't you think Mantle will eat into that time instead of optimising directx or opengl thus harming the performance for nvidia?

It depends on how much help AMD is giving the studios. If they are providing funding and personal,then it might not be as big a hit as you think.

I suppose we need some more devs to talk about how much effort and time it takes to implement Mantle.

ATM,its all conjecture.

 

[whyscotty]

Watchdogs is not something i think is conclusive yet the whole internet has it running far better on Nvidia.

Crap, loads of peeps using Nvidia having probs