Like a pack of bickering auld dolls in here, quit yer nagging.
It always end up getting nasty. Shame really.
-
Competitor rules
Please remember that any mention of competitors, hinting at competitors or offering to provide details of competitors will result in an account suspension. The full rules can be found under the 'Terms and Rules' link in the bottom right corner of your screen. Just don't mention competitors in any way, shape or form and you'll be OK.
Gameworks, Mantle and a pot calling a kettle black
- Thread starter Gregster
- Start date
It always end up getting nasty. Shame really.
You should keep private messages private Matt. The clue is in the name
Eh it was friendly advice via email so hardly a trade secret.
Soldato
- Joined
- 27 Feb 2012
- Posts
- 6,586
No issue, just curious. You don't want to answer the question though
Not even a nasty question, not in the slightest. Might be a little bit of a troll question, but not nasty.
No issue, just curious. You don't want to answer the question though
Not even a nasty question, not in the slightest. Might be a little bit of a troll question, but not nasty.
You just admitted it's a troll question. What's the point? I think the saying is don't feed the troll. No matter what i say, you will paint me in a bad light. I can't win so better i just don't say anything i think.
Soldato
- Joined
- 27 Feb 2012
- Posts
- 6,586
Might be, but like GW we just don't know
Don't get all Humbug on me and start playing the victim...how boring. Seriously though, you've lost your fighting spirit. What's up with you
Might be, but like GW we just don't know
Don't get all Humbug on me and start playing the victim...how boring. Seriously though, you've lost your fighting spirit. What's up with you
I'm not here to fight tone. I've had enough of that over the past few days. I'm just an enthusiast like everyone else with an interest in games, gpu's and everything surrounding them. I know how Humbug must've felt though, and it's not particularly nice.
Soldato
- Joined
- 28 May 2007
- Posts
- 10,226
Take a break Lt, i will get the drink out and prepare for battle 
Seriously though this is never going to get resolved and should be put to bed until something else pop's up if that ever happens. I hope for the sake of us all nothing does.
Seriously though this is never going to get resolved and should be put to bed until something else pop's up if that ever happens. I hope for the sake of us all nothing does.
Take a break Lt, i will get the drink out and prepare for battle
Seriously though this is never going to get resolved and should be put to bed until something else pop's up if that ever happens. I hope for the sake of us all nothing does.
It's important to stay calm in the face of adversity. It's a good lesson for me i think.
Mine's a Jack Daniels, on the rocks.
Soldato
- Joined
- 27 Feb 2012
- Posts
- 6,586
Your deflated enthusiasm has defeated me, i'm going to watch Brazil lose.
Humbug plays the victim, as it's easier than admitting you're wrong, please whatever you do, don't start playing the victim.
Lol. Why can't we just agree to disagree? I'm more than happy to do that here with anyone. We can't all be right/wrong/whatever. No hard feelings from me anyway.
There nothing wrong with disagreeing on things and a different point of few it helps new idea's emerge and things move forward.
IMO some users/reporters seen a problem and thought there was a issue so for users/amds there own good/interests whatever they investigated and kicked up a stink to make sure nothing dodgy was going on.
GW seems so far to have not been proven to harm , but it could be assuming features were not to able to be turned off and forced AMD users to use IQ effects that might not run as well for them as their respective nvidia conterparts.
Some still have doubts some dont,
You cant please all the people all the time
And yes LT sometimes all we can do in life is agree to disagree doesnt make either person less
IMO some users/reporters seen a problem and thought there was a issue so for users/amds there own good/interests whatever they investigated and kicked up a stink to make sure nothing dodgy was going on.
GW seems so far to have not been proven to harm , but it could be assuming features were not to able to be turned off and forced AMD users to use IQ effects that might not run as well for them as their respective nvidia conterparts.
Some still have doubts some dont,
You cant please all the people all the time
And yes LT sometimes all we can do in life is agree to disagree doesnt make either person less
Here's Why NVIDIA Corporation's GameWorks Is Perfectly Fair
Another interesting article on GameWorks
In a recent article at Forbes, an AMD (NYSE: AMD ) executive essentially called foul on GameWorks -- NVIDIA's (NASDAQ: NVDA ) complete suite of graphics, physics, and ray tracing libraries and code samples designed to help developers get the most out of NVIDIA graphics hardware. GameWorks not only helps developers make their games look and perform better, but it also serves as a competitive edge for NVIDIA.
And it's completely fair.
Graphics isn't all about hardware
In the discrete graphics space, only NVIDIA and AMD remain as serious players. Both companies release products at about the same cadence, and both build their graphics products on similar manufacturing processes with similar transistor budgets. From a hardware perspective, there's room for innovation and differentiation at the architectural level, but both companies, at least for high-end gamers, are quite good at developing graphics hardware.
To truly differentiate with graphics solutions, it's not enough to build the fastest or most efficient underlying hardware, since graphics performance and quality are tied to both the quality of the drivers -- that is, the software that acts as a bridge between the game code and the underlying hardware, as programmers don't usually talk directly to the hardware -- and the optimization of the game code for graphics hardware.
This is where NVIDIA's focus is an advantage
AMD's R&D budget is actually smaller than NVIDIA's. However, while NVIDIA focuses its R&D on Tegra, Tesla, GeForce, and Quadro -- the latter three all using the same or similar silicon -- AMD spreads out its R&D across a number of projects, including:
Two lines of X86 CPU cores (the small "Cat" cores and the larger cores such as Bulldozer, Piledriver, and Steamroller).
An ARM Holdings-based custom CPU core.
Various system-on-a-chip products for PCs and servers, and embedded.
Discrete graphics products for PCs, workstations, and high-performance computing.
Since NVIDIA has a higher R&D budget to focus on a narrower set of products, it's only natural that it has the capability of investing heavily in providing useful tools and support to developers to provide key competitive advantages in a space where both players provide competitive underlying hardware. This isn't unfair -- it's just how competition works.
Foolish bottom line
AMD has chosen a strategy where it wants to participate in just about every market it can think of. There is merit to such a strategy, but it does mean that in any given market, AMD is unlikely to be the leader, as we've seen with PCs, servers, and graphics. NVIDIA, on the other hand, has chosen a strategy where it doesn't try to take on the world if it's clear that it doesn't have a competitive edge -- a lesson NVIDIA learned from its Tegra 4i launch.
Both can succeed, but right now NVIDIA is in far better financial shape than AMD is, with a ton of cash on the balance sheet, high gross margins, and much more robust profitability. That said, it'll be interesting to see how well AMD's strategy plays out over time. But the fact remains that what NVIDIA is doing with its GameWorks and developer relations is not only completely fair, but it is also exactly how competitive markets are supposed to work.
Another interesting article on GameWorks
Caporegime
- Joined
- 9 Nov 2009
- Posts
- 25,909
- Location
- Planet Earth
LOL, Ashraf Eassa.
He is also known as Intel17 and posts on many forums and websites ,and he does not like anything AMD makes or does,since he lost a lot of money on AMD shares(I think Humbug mentioned the latter part),when their stock price crashed in 2008.
I think he has been predicting AMD will be finished for years now - you can see the comments on many of his articles.
He is also known as Intel17 and posts on many forums and websites ,and he does not like anything AMD makes or does,since he lost a lot of money on AMD shares(I think Humbug mentioned the latter part),when their stock price crashed in 2008.
I think he has been predicting AMD will be finished for years now - you can see the comments on many of his articles.
Last edited:
Caporegime
- Joined
- 9 Nov 2009
- Posts
- 25,909
- Location
- Planet Earth
Some think he is attempting to make things over-negative,for shorting reasons,or could be because he got burned by AMD. However,after reading his posts on some forums,I tend to take what he says with a big dose of scepticism.
Nvidia has its own set of issues too. ATM,$200 million of their profits each year(until 2016) are provided by Intel,as part of a settlement due to Intel screwing over Nvidia in the chipset business.
Tegra has lost billions AFAIK. The worse is MIC. All those high end cards and all that R and D money spent on GPUs like the GF110 and GK110 are down to one market - the commercial compute market where Nvidia has 70% to 80% marketshare and has very high margins. It makes a significant part of their profits each year.
MIC is Intel entering that market,and will to sell at low price to get into it.MIC are basically cards based on depreciated X86 cores,and supposedly they are very easy to programme for(Intel claims OFC).
If Intel succeeds,can you see the big problem here??
Intel is throwing billions of dollars at low power CPUs and GPUs. They did the same to AMD,by giving billions of dollars to make sure the Athlon 64 was not widely adopted.
AMD is not in brilliant shape but they have had to fight Intel primarily in the CPU market,where a huge chunk of their sales are still from.
Nvidia,at the moment has done very poorly in the CPU market,and its graphics sales have kind of helped there.
The whole point of the re-organisation with AMD is to make sure they have a more efficient cost structure.
What the chap who wrote the article does seem to get,is that if AMD was going down the drain,how come they have hired some of the best people around?? Its like a reverse brain drain - they really have hired some good people now.
Do you know Rory Reed(CEO),is the guy who essential turned around Lenovo,and its his changes which lead to them becoming the biggest PC company in the world.
Plus think about this - don't you think it is quite amazing AMD managed to still make a GPU like Hawaii on a much smaller budget than Nvidia? Wrap up the consoles,and get dozens of devs on board with Mantle??
Look at the Athlon 64 - they were 1/7 to 1/8 the size of Intel in terms of number of employees at the time and had a fraction of the R and D budget.
Even as long ago as 1989 people said AMD were doomed(there is an article in WSJ IIRC).
Last edited:
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
It's $250 mil from Intel and ends in 2015 or 16, forget which. They also got around $100mil a year from PS3 sales which have unsurprisingly tanked from 150k a week to 50k a week, not nothing and will still sell well for a while but not that long.
MIC is less of a problem short term. Nvidia have had a 90% market share in professional graphics for ages and AMD has barely even tried to fight there, they are finally putting some money, marketing and people into that segment and won 10% back in basically one deal and they are being very aggressive and now providing higher performance cards with more DP performance in the market. the 1/2 dp rate or Hawaii on top of the already strong Tahiti based products is making people take notice.
I love how he paints Nvidia as not running after every market, and Nvidia graphics cards are all covered by one architecture but doesn't make the same distinction for AMD, also incorrectly talking about the products they are working on.
Bulldozer architecture work has dried up, with most of that moving to a joint ARM/x86 project, the majority of the R&D costs these days is in the uncore, power saving techs, research on those things. AMD will share power saving across all architectures.
He attempts to separate the small cat cores from the socs for various markets and acts like this isn't all the same product repackaged. AMD aren't remotely as thinly spread as he's suggesting and most important is the growth in the areas they are going after. Micro servers are growing fast and AMD are the best positioned company to dominate it. Professional graphics is growing fast, embedded is growing, semi custom APU's(again based off ultimately the same architecture) has gone from non existent to a large portion of their revenue every year with one product cycle with (rumoured) 3-4 more customers in the next year(2 believed to be getting under way this year).
The majority of the increase in Nvidia's spending has been on Tegra, and it's been mostly a complete failure so I wouldn't go around talking about their increase in R&D spending and limited targets as being a good thing. The only thing to read from that is, Nvidia doubles/triples spending to go after new market.... and fails, while alienating most of their potential customers.
AMD has reduced R&D spending and increased profits, Nvidia has drastically increased R&D spending and has little to nothing to show for it.
MIC is less of a problem short term. Nvidia have had a 90% market share in professional graphics for ages and AMD has barely even tried to fight there, they are finally putting some money, marketing and people into that segment and won 10% back in basically one deal and they are being very aggressive and now providing higher performance cards with more DP performance in the market. the 1/2 dp rate or Hawaii on top of the already strong Tahiti based products is making people take notice.
I love how he paints Nvidia as not running after every market, and Nvidia graphics cards are all covered by one architecture but doesn't make the same distinction for AMD, also incorrectly talking about the products they are working on.
Bulldozer architecture work has dried up, with most of that moving to a joint ARM/x86 project, the majority of the R&D costs these days is in the uncore, power saving techs, research on those things. AMD will share power saving across all architectures.
He attempts to separate the small cat cores from the socs for various markets and acts like this isn't all the same product repackaged. AMD aren't remotely as thinly spread as he's suggesting and most important is the growth in the areas they are going after. Micro servers are growing fast and AMD are the best positioned company to dominate it. Professional graphics is growing fast, embedded is growing, semi custom APU's(again based off ultimately the same architecture) has gone from non existent to a large portion of their revenue every year with one product cycle with (rumoured) 3-4 more customers in the next year(2 believed to be getting under way this year).
The majority of the increase in Nvidia's spending has been on Tegra, and it's been mostly a complete failure so I wouldn't go around talking about their increase in R&D spending and limited targets as being a good thing. The only thing to read from that is, Nvidia doubles/triples spending to go after new market.... and fails, while alienating most of their potential customers.
AMD has reduced R&D spending and increased profits, Nvidia has drastically increased R&D spending and has little to nothing to show for it.
Another interesting article on GameWorks
Except it says nothing about GW other than being competitive which as a generalisation is fair
I care not for the earnings/spending from one company or another as a consumer. Seems like the article was written to cash in on GW topic (which most if not all of them have been anyway) except this adds nothing of value at all sadly Except it says nothing about GW other than being competitive which as a generalisation is fair
Reading it again, it does look like someone doesn't like AMD. Not one of my best articles I have posted in truth and maybe I shouldn't have bothered. I do get things wrong sometimes anyways
Reading it again, it does look like someone doesn't like AMD. Not one of my best articles I have posted in truth and maybe I shouldn't have bothered. I do get things wrong sometimes anyways
All on the author really, not pinning it on you