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Richard Huddy - Gaming Scientist Interviewed
- Thread starter LtMatt
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Soldato
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Will watch this later. 
Associate
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Prepare thyself for another apocalyptic thread!
Soldato
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Matt thread about mantle. Predictable response from the chefs. There's many a thread now banging on about certain people always bringing nvidia/AMD to the debate taking it off course.
Anyway, going to watch this video and let the kids fight if they wish to.
Soldato
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Yes, that is rather annoying. From some of the comments about this guy I thought he jumped ship following the corn, however in his intro he stays onboard for ~ 4 years before moving on which isn't as bad as some business folk.
GameWorks is exactly where AMD wants to be with Mantle so it's not surprising they are attacking it and trying to displace it. The big difference is that AMD don't want to pay a penny or assist developers on a one to one basis like NVidia do, they want the benefits without the sacrifices.
AMD's Linux drivers have been poor for years, they're only playing that card now because it will help Mantle on Windows.
AMD's Linux drivers have been poor for years, they're only playing that card now because it will help Mantle on Windows.
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Last edited:
I skipped through various parts, caught some gold along the way.
Some of the stuff he says is spot on, some he contradicts him self a little and other parts I'm not sure of.
He says DX is bloated due to all of the hardware it must support, Mantle is efficient due to the lack of hardware it supports, then half an hour later says theres nothing to stop Nvidia adding mantle support when the v1.0 spec is finalised. So Mantle works as its basically programmed for GCN, won't all that efficiency disappear if others get involved
His little gameworks rant ends in him saying AMD cards can't render Tessellation as well as Nvidia?
Freesync won't be called Freesync, Freesync displays may come at a premium due to operating ranges.
Gsync has some mystical extra frame latency that no one else has mentioned thus far.
Lots of throat clearing.
Some of the stuff he says is spot on, some he contradicts him self a little and other parts I'm not sure of.
He says DX is bloated due to all of the hardware it must support, Mantle is efficient due to the lack of hardware it supports, then half an hour later says theres nothing to stop Nvidia adding mantle support when the v1.0 spec is finalised. So Mantle works as its basically programmed for GCN, won't all that efficiency disappear if others get involved
His little gameworks rant ends in him saying AMD cards can't render Tessellation as well as Nvidia?
Freesync won't be called Freesync, Freesync displays may come at a premium due to operating ranges.
Gsync has some mystical extra frame latency that no one else has mentioned thus far.
Lots of throat clearing.
Soldato
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But the difference is mantle don't effect nvidia users at all, unlike Gameworks is supposed to.
Soldato
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That's because supporting "new" AMD and Nvidia hardware is relatively only few pieces of hardware, if comparing to dx supporting every single graphic card that support dx9 or dx8 even released over the pass decade or so...there's hundreds of them.He says DX is bloated due to all of the hardware it must support, Mantle is efficient due to the lack of hardware it supports, then half an hour later says theres nothing to stop Nvidia adding mantle support when the v1.0 spec is finalised. So Mantle works as its basically programmed for GCN, won't all that efficiency disappear if others get involved
how on earth did you get that from, gameworks is a failure, devs dont like it, it brings shady and questionable method of implementation, all the games that includes it run like crap, and on top of that graphics doesnt really change, here tell me 1 game where gameworks made any noticable graphic step up? ...None.
and anyone who denies the benefits that mantle brought is just in denial.
yes AMD was about to go belly up, they dont wanna spend money for useless stuff, like spend millions upon millions on drivers over and over again, when they can supply lower level API that allow the devs to optimise the game the way they like, ppl wont have to wait months or years for optimisation, the games will ship optimised by the devs.
and saying that AMD wants to benefit without spending a penny and draging comparaison with Nvidia is just beyond me, AMD open all their techs, they develope and give to the community, Mantle will be open and heck it wont even have a licence, freesync open without licence, huddy even said they will make an open library for effects like gameworks, and put it for the community to use it and change it as they see fit, without licence again.
Nvidia they try to close all their tech in a private eco system, without open source to evolve it, and with licencing, gsync, gamework, 3d stereo, physx...
seriously who make the sacrifice and invest to evolve open source of gaming industry, and who count every penny he spend and try to make it back 10 times fold, dont get me wrong they are here to make money and i get that, but your statement is unfair and wrong.
and about linux, for it to work it needed to be a platform, otherwise why would they spend resources on it, when there is no games and no devs to make gaes for it because there was no gaming platform, with valve now you get potential 20million prospect? devs will come, AMD will optimise.
not like if optimised AMD 5 years ago would have helped you for linux tetris graphics...
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My summary:
Not really a whole lot of new information in there to be honest.
Mantle is more efficient than DX12 will be as it only has to support 1 architecture.
Mantle will be open so could support other vendors/architectures (seems to be in contrast to the first point).
Nvidia/Intel may seem some of the performance improvements Mantle offers (suggests they won't see all of them).
Other vendors will have full access if they want to change anything.
AMD will keep control of Mantle (seems to conflict with the above point again), this will allow them to react faster to changes in their architecture and presumable **** over any other vendors using it at AMD's will.
GameWorks stuff was basically them saying the opposite of what Nvidia have said about source code availability and letting developers work with AMD. AMD say one thing Nvidia say the other.
Valid point about Nvidia in theory being able to use it to screw AMD in the future. This is just in theory though.
AMD are unable to see the source code and yet they were able to tell that it runs something inefficiently on AMD but not on Nvidia or something. They can't optimise drivers without source code but they can tell something like this?
They did mention that Mantle takes some resource away from DX driver work, but after 5/6 years there's not much more they can do anyway. Nvidia managed to improve efficiency recently, but AMD can't do that it seems or they would have already.
Seems logical that if Mantle takes resource away from their DX efforts then this may also be true of developer resource. So DX rendering path may suffer as developer resource will be spent on Mantle.
Also, Richard Huddy used BF4 as an example of a good engine. He also during this section mentioned that games pushing technical boundaries will also need good gameplay (as well as simpler games that rely on gameplay, i.e. Angry Birds). Makes me wonder if Richard has actually played BF4...
Not really a whole lot of new information in there to be honest.
Mantle is more efficient than DX12 will be as it only has to support 1 architecture.
Mantle will be open so could support other vendors/architectures (seems to be in contrast to the first point).
Nvidia/Intel may seem some of the performance improvements Mantle offers (suggests they won't see all of them).
Other vendors will have full access if they want to change anything.
AMD will keep control of Mantle (seems to conflict with the above point again), this will allow them to react faster to changes in their architecture and presumable **** over any other vendors using it at AMD's will.
GameWorks stuff was basically them saying the opposite of what Nvidia have said about source code availability and letting developers work with AMD. AMD say one thing Nvidia say the other.
Valid point about Nvidia in theory being able to use it to screw AMD in the future. This is just in theory though.
AMD are unable to see the source code and yet they were able to tell that it runs something inefficiently on AMD but not on Nvidia or something. They can't optimise drivers without source code but they can tell something like this?
They did mention that Mantle takes some resource away from DX driver work, but after 5/6 years there's not much more they can do anyway. Nvidia managed to improve efficiency recently, but AMD can't do that it seems or they would have already.
Seems logical that if Mantle takes resource away from their DX efforts then this may also be true of developer resource. So DX rendering path may suffer as developer resource will be spent on Mantle.
Also, Richard Huddy used BF4 as an example of a good engine. He also during this section mentioned that games pushing technical boundaries will also need good gameplay (as well as simpler games that rely on gameplay, i.e. Angry Birds). Makes me wonder if Richard has actually played BF4...
So cards would need to be mantle certified to run it? Kind of like how we have dx9/10/11 certified cards at the moment?
Say nvidia and Intel adopt it tomorrow and their new graphics archs support mantle, does it get less efficient each year? What about in 10 years? If dx11 is already bloated from 4 generations of cards (from an architecture count that's not many per vendor) how many cycles is it going to take to bloat it to the point it becomes inefficient again?
nvidia never said that amd had access to the code, they said devs who bought the licence have access to it, and they also said AMD doesnt need the source code to optimise, because there are other ways, all of this implies that devs are under NDA and cannot share the code with a 3rd party who doesnt have the licence, things that huddy explained and pointed out that devs told his engineer team that the nda forbids them from giving it to AMD.