Richard Huddy - Gaming Scientist Interviewed

[Gerard]

Repeat after me, its a videocard...not a way of life.

These threads get tiresome, they crop up so often its almost impossible not to have a look inside to see the monkey **** fight going on.

 

[triss]

not really, with tressfx the code was released on public, nvidia could have picked and optimised it earlier, and it was special because the effect was new and tomb raider was the first game to use it, the code it self needed some work to be good, and it is now.
thing that cannot be done with gameworks, due to this shady secrecy nvidia put around it, and NDAs and licences.
seriously what's the point, if it's propritary it has a patent, if it's ment to make things easier for devs, they really dont need to go through all this blackbox crap.

Tomb raider isnt the only game AMD did better then Nvidia on launch , Are they all special cases and exemption?
Humbugs Already said WB let let AMD look at the code to optimise it,, and its not a black box for Game dev's since they can see in it.
If you look back at history game have often performed better on one vendor or another its not really different now.
Gameworks works for Nvidia hardware to optimise stuff so the card performs above where it should while offering a easy way to code stuff do dev's and introducing effects that may well not of been included ingame

Mantle reduces bottlenecks and improves stuff for AMD hardware so the card performs above the level it would in DX
But there no pattern here right?

 

[AlamoX]

Tomb raider isnt the only game AMD did better then Nvidia on launch , Are they all special cases and exemption?
Humbugs Already said WB let let AMD look at the code to optimise it,, and its not a black box for Game dev's since they can see in it.
If you look back at history game have often performed better on one vendor or another its not really different now.
Gameworks works for Nvidia hardware to optimise stuff so the card performs above where it should while offering a easy way to code stuff do dev's and introducing effects that may well not of been included ingame

Mantle reduces bottlenecks and improves stuff for AMD hardware so the card performs above the level it would in DX
But there no pattern here right?

if a game sux on nvidia hardware at launch it's probably because nvdia wasn't involved enough during the game developement, because all AMD techs are open for them to see and optimise
yes there was a black box and still is, there has been what 4 games with gameworks ? during all the developement duration and release it was closed even to the devs to see the code all they had was a dll, then on the last game watch dogs less than a month from it's release, because of the pressure of devs, Nvidia decided to put in place a licence to see the code, not all the code but part of it this is still work in progress, and even then nvidia puts an NDA preventing devs from telling AMD how to fix the issue if they are lucky enough to have the expertise to spot it in the first place.
and gameworks is supposed to be an enhancement of visual effect, that up till now you wont be able to give me 1 visual step up in any of these 4 games that is worth mentioning, but on the other hand the performance takes a hit.
again Mantle is a Low level API, that offer more flexibility for devs to manage their resources and tap on multi cpu scalling correctly, along with other perks, that works on all hardware (cpu), and also gpu ( if the vendor wants to add it, they will not be tied up with a licencing fee, nor will it be hidden from them, if you saw the interview, you would have known that AMD is welcoming Nvidia to adopt it, again Mantle doesnt cannot negatively impact nvidia's performance even if they dont want to adopt an open and licence free api that is more efficient for their end users, when you play a Mntle game forget about AMD users and just imagine the game came out in an alternate univers that doesnt have Mantle invented, you still get the same game, stop comparing this to the fact that nvidia can put millions of triangle for tasselation on batman's cap even though it doesnt need that many, but the trick is nvidia perform better on tasselation, so buy over charging the cap the perf difference increase, then deny access to AMD to the code and you have a winner in benchs, at a business where money is made according to score on benchs.
seriously just watch the interview

 

[humbug]

Actually watching this answers a lot of arguments in this thread

Absolute Gold! Topics discussed

Mantle
GameWorks
Linux

And more. A must listen.

Watched all of it, very very interesting. a lot to look forward to

 

[triss]

if a game sux on nvidia hardware at launch it's probably because nvdia wasn't involved enough during the game developement, because all AMD techs are open for them to see and optimise
yes there was a black box and still is, there has been what 4 games with gameworks ? during all the developement duration and release it was closed even to the devs to see the code all they had was a dll, then on the last game watch dogs less than a month from it's release, because of the pressure of devs, Nvidia decided to put in place a licence to see the code, not all the code but part of it this is still work in progress, and even then nvidia puts an NDA preventing devs from telling AMD how to fix the issue if they are lucky enough to have the expertise to spot it in the first place.
and gameworks is supposed to be an enhancement of visual effect, that up till now you wont be able to give me 1 visual step up in any of these 4 games that is worth mentioning, but on the other hand the performance takes a hit.
again Mantle is a Low level API, that offer more flexibility for devs to manage their resources and tap on multi cpu scalling correctly, along with other perks, that works on all hardware (cpu), and also gpu ( if the vendor wants to add it, they will not be tied up with a licencing fee, nor will it be hidden from them, if you saw the interview, you would have known that AMD is welcoming Nvidia to adopt it, again Mantle doesnt cannot negatively impact nvidia's performance even if they dont want to adopt an open and licence free api that is more efficient for their end users, when you play a Mntle game forget about AMD users and just imagine the game came out in an alternate univers that doesnt have Mantle invented, you still get the same game, stop comparing this to the fact that nvidia can put millions of triangle for tasselation on batman's cap even though it doesnt need that many, but the trick is nvidia perform better on tasselation, so buy over charging the cap the perf difference increase, then deny access to AMD to the code and you have a winner in benchs, at a business where money is made according to score on benchs.
seriously just watch the interview

if a game sux on nvidia hardware at launch it's probably because nvdia wasn't involved enough during the game developement

Seriously i have to believe what amd says but not when its been said Nvidia has been locked out until just before launch?
Did you read where source has Never been denied to a Game dev that asked for it? Or where its available on there site if you have a license?

You do realise this isnt just about batman right?
So Nvidia pay devs to over tess every benchmark so they win :O wow ty for that info

Did you read where AMD is actually going to retain control of mantle now and not let others optimise it for their hardware? So its no longer going to be fully open
Yes Nvidia technically is invited to use mantle just as much as AMD is technically allowed to buy a gameworks licence and optimise asmuch as they like for it, Both of which wont happen

 

[humbug]

As a follow up to the video, pcper have taken all the interesting bits from the video and gone through it piece by piece and given a good writeup.

AMD Planning Open Source GameWorks Competitor, Mantle for Linux



Full Article
http://www.pcper.com/news/Graphics-Cards/AMD-Planning-Open-Source-GameWorks-Competitor-Mantle-Linux?

Yup, one of the many interesting things from the video.

How to beat a closed black box plugin library, release a competing library that is open source.

The same thing as Game Works, the only difference is no dll's, instead open source code that the developer can do with what they like.

Giving someone control always trumps taking that control away.

 

[triss]

Yup, one of the many interesting things from the video.

How to beat a closed black box plugin library, release a competing library that is open source.

The same thing as Game Works, the only difference is no dll's, instead open source code that the developer can do with what they like.

Giving someone control always trumps taking that control away.

AMD Planning an "OpenWorks" Program

This if it takes off would be a great idea hopefully it will

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Actually watching this answers a lot of arguments in this thread



Watched all of it, very very interesting. a lot to look forward to

Watching the video caused a lot of the arguments in this thread, if it answered them then they wouldn't have started surely?

Yup, one of the many interesting things from the video.

How to beat a closed black box plugin library, release a competing library that is open source.

The same thing as Game Works, the only difference is no dll's, instead open source code that the developer can do with what they like.

Giving someone control always trumps taking that control away.

Agreed, if it's open source and works equally well for everyone then that would be a great situation. Pity Mantle doesn't follow that rule!

 

[Final8y]

Gaming evolved titles should always run well on Nvidia hardware. The source code for all AMD tech is available to download on their website. Huddy confirmed in the video they are free to modify the source code to improve the gaming experience for their users. The code probably will need optimizing for it to perform optimally on a different architecture. The good thing is AMD allow that, so it benefits everyone. Nvidia do most of their optimization through the drivers anyway according to game devs, so whilst they may not have good drivers at launch (Tomb Raider) over time they can improve their drivers and get great performance by optimizing the source code in question, in this example TressFX.

On that note NV did have access to (Tomb Raider) before release, but something was changed at the last moment.
The same happened with the finial build of Crysis2 which broke crossfire which was working in the beta.

We are aware of major performance and stability issues with GeForce GPUs running Tomb Raider with maximum settings. Unfortunately, NVIDIA didn’t receive final code until this past weekend which substantially decreased stability, image quality and performance over a build we were previously provided. We are working closely with Crystal Dynamics to address and resolve all game issues as quickly as possible.
In the meantime, we would like to apologize to GeForce users that are not able to have a great experience playing Tomb Raider, as they have come to expect with all of their favorite PC games.

https://forums.geforce.com/default/...e-a-look-at-tomb-raider/post/3752523/#3752523

 

[LtMatt]

Did you read where AMD is actually going to retain control of mantle now and not let others optimise it for their hardware? So its no longer going to be fully open
Yes Nvidia technically is invited to use mantle just as much as AMD is technically allowed to buy a gameworks licence and optimise asmuch as they like for it, Both of which wont happen

Several differences there though triss, did you watch the video ?

Nvidia will be allowed to use Mantle. There will be NO licence fee's. No cost involved with doing so. They will be free to write and tweak their own optimizations for it. They will have access to source code via a public SDK available for download on AMD's website. However AMD will want to retain control of Mantle so they can further improve it over time (this is the first beta, it will not be the final Mantle build) and after all it is primarily designed GCN for architecture. It can be improved upon and problems can be fixed, over time . Despite this it will be able to run and still see big improvements on Intel/Nvidia. Now you might think well what's to stop them changing part of it so it no longer works well on other hardware? Well that would be bad for Mantle and would make no sense for them to do that. Think about it like this. Mantle is an optional API, designed to leverage more performance from hardware than any other API out there. If it offered no performance improvement, why would anyone use it? The more that use Mantle, the better chance of success it has. AMD are open about the majority of their tech, with Mantle being the only closed tech (until it's out of beta - end of 2014) they have at the moment. Can you ever see Physx or GameWorks or Gsync ever being handed over to a third party and Nvidia just giving it up, for the greater good? Nvidia won't even let game devs provide any optimizations for source code for GameWorks titles on AMD hardware despite game devs saying that access to source code is vital and often mandatory.

Agreed, if it's open source and works equally well for everyone then that would be a great situation. Pity Mantle doesn't follow that rule!

Nvidia will be free to adopt Mantle once it's out of beta.

 

[flopper]

Several differences there though triss, did you watch the video ?

Nvidia will be allowed to use Mantle. There will be NO licence fee's. No cost involved with doing so. They will be free to write and tweak their own optimizations for it.



Nvidia will be free to adopt Mantle once it's out of beta.

Wont happen.
Nvidia business strategy and culture of doing business this isnt going to happen.
AMD says that anyone can do it but wont happen, as far I know Nvidia wont do it as they havent done it before (as far I know) and that they will change the business model due to a competitive solution like Mantle?

Not likely, maybe when hell freeze over.

Nvidia dont do business like this.

 

[LtMatt]

Wont happen.
Nvidia business strategy and culture of doing business this isnt going to happen.
AMD says that anyone can do it but wont happen, as far I know Nvidia wont do it as they havent done it before (as far I know) and that they will change the business model due to a competitive solution like Mantle?

Not likely, maybe when hell freeze over.

Nvidia dont do business like this.

You're probably right, but at least they have the option. Intel have shown an interest in Mantle so i would expect them to adopt it once it's out of beta, at least until DX12 arrives anyway.

 

[triss]

I cant see Nvidia adopting mantle or AMD buying a license for gameworks LT but for either yes the option is there

It's a nice sentiment, but does that mean AMD is willing to allow an entity traditionally viewed from behind enemy lines make use of Mantle?
"It's hard to say," Hallock said. "If we want it to be an industry-wide API or inspire an industry-wide API, that would mean adoption from Nvidia in some way, shape or form. I can't speak from an architectural level what that would require of them to change."
"But for the good of gamers, [we] would want one ultimate specification that is either Mantle itself or one similar to it. As Highlander said, 'There can only be one.'"

http://www.techradar.com/news/compu...g-api-to-become-the-industry-standard-1218560


So once DX 12 hits and its close to mantle as devs say , Amd will close mantle down i presume as there can be only one?
Just asking btw as i thought you might have more insight into that LT

 

[Orangey]

If Mantle becomes more attractive to AAA devs than GL then Linux gaming might be a decent sized niche for AMD in the future. After all, all anyone ever does is complain about GL.

 

[LtMatt]

I cant see Nvidia adopting mantle or AMD buying a license for gameworks LT but for either yes the option is there




http://www.techradar.com/news/comput...andard-1218560


So once DX 12 hits and its close to mantle as devs say , Amd will close mantle down i presume as there can be only one?
Just asking btw as i thought you might have more insight into that LT

Your link does not work and who is saying that? Some journalist? AMD just gave an interview broadcast live on pcper saying that Intel and Nvidia will be able to use Mantle. If you think the second DX12 comes out AMD will start locking out other vendors from using Mantle then you're mistaken triss. That would be counter productive to what they're trying to do.

 

[triss]

http://www.techradar.com/news/compu...g-api-to-become-the-industry-standard-1218560

^^linky
And for who said it
Robert Hallock, technical communications, AMD Graphics & Gaming<< you should know this dude
Its why i asked for your insight as i hadnt seen it before
its not about locking other venders out its about having one API be it mantle or a mantle based/type api which isnt what DX 12 will be closer too?

 

[LtMatt]

http://www.techradar.com/news/compu...g-api-to-become-the-industry-standard-1218560

^^linky
And for who said it
Robert Hallock, technical communications, AMD Graphics & Gaming<< you should know this dude
Its why i asked for your insight as i hadnt seen it before
its not about locking other venders out its about having one API be it mantle or a mantle based/type api which isnt what DX 12 will be closer too?

triss that quote says nothing of interest at all. He's saying he doesn't know if Nvidia will adopt it. This was just before Mantle even hit BF4. I'm not even sure if DX12 was announced when that quote was taken.

 

[triss]

triss that quote says nothing of interest at all. He's saying he doesn't know if Nvidia will adopt it. This was just before Mantle even hit BF4. Not sure why you keep quoting it if im honest. I'm not even sure if DX12 was announced when that quote was taken

1. Would you care to show me where i keep quoting it ?
Once here then the link because it was broken, yet you repeatedly posted the same vid how many times in the thread? But if quotes are to be only used once per thread i do hope you will abide by this new rule
But since you cant see what i asked i'll post it once more

But for the good of gamers, [we] would want one ultimate specification that is either Mantle itself or one similar to it. As Highlander said, 'There can only be one.'"

2 Where does that mention Nvidia?
3, There can only be one Either mantle or One similar to it
So if as Dev's so far have said DX12 is mantle like will there only be one API DX12
Or is DX 12 still far enough away to not count?
I asked as you seem to know more about amd's mantle stuff and i hadn't seen this anywhere else

It doesnt matter if DX 12 was around then or not this is simply AMD saying they would like one API either mantle or a mantle type API

 

[LtMatt]

1. Would you care to show me where i keep quoting it ?
Once here then the link because it was broken, yet you repeatedly posted the same vid how many times in the thread? But if quotes are to be only used once per thread i do hope you will abide by this new rule
But since you cant see what i asked i'll post it once more



2 Where does that mention Nvidia?
3, There can only be one Either mantle or One similar to it
So if as Dev's so far have said DX12 is mantle like will there only be one API DX12
Or is DX 12 still far enough away to not count?
I asked as you seem to know more about amd's mantle stuff and i hadn't seen this anywhere else

It doesnt matter if DX 12 was around then or not this is simply AMD saying they would like one API either mantle or a mantle type API

I was trying to post snippets from that video discussing things that were being mentioned in the thread at the time. For some reason though it didn't work.

That was before Mantle hit any titles and before DX12 was even announced. At this time there was only one new API Mantle. I think AMD were hoping it could become an industry standard, why not as DX12 was nowhere to be seen at this time. They say for that to happen Nvidia would need to adopt it, but they're not sure if they would adopt it. Unless im missing something? AMD have said many times that they hoped Mantle would be the spark for change and clearly it has as sometime later DX12 popped out from nowhere. Mantle can still survive after DX12 as long as devs continue to use it and develop for it. If we're to believe what Huddy says in the video, then the majority of devs in the beta program want Mantle to continue after DX12 launches.

EDIT

I think what he was trying to say is, ultimately there can only be one API that supports everything. Mantle is not going to be that API, though they may have thought that at the time because DX12 didn't exist then.

 

[~Mike~]

I was trying to post snippets from that video discussing things that were being mentioned in the thread at the time. For some reason though it didn't work.

You need to tick 'start at' box

Example you tube link with start time at the end

http://youtu.be/8uoD8YKwtww[B]?t=33m24s[/B]