Europe upholds French ban of the Niqab

Richie said:
I am talking about France here. no one is up in arms about their rights to wearing a balaclava over there....

Bear in mind, France did not bring in this law to persecute Muslims, it was brought in as a security/safety issue. It just so happens that a religion (of which it is not mandatory) happens to have a piece of clothing that the law affects.
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Actually religion doesn't state that such things must be worn. All it says is that something modest should be worn and that's pretty broad and open to interpretation based on where the person is living in the world. Basically you can very easily see it as saying "be modest based on the cultural ways of the land in which you are in" rather than "you must wear a niqab/burkha/xyz" which I and many others think is ludicrous. I would hazard a strong bet that if you ask 10 women who do wear them why they wear them they will say that religion commands them to rather than it being their choice, and they'd be wrong and that is the problem we have. I know this because I see it all the time.

It's the men who are in power in Islamic states that twist and turn these things into rules and regulations and punish people for not abiding by them. The sooner those people are outed from their seats and sensible people replace them the better for everyone all over.
 
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Freefaller said:
Not really as being offensive isn't fair. It's called being respectful.
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We're talking about someone using condescending, disrespectful language towards an ideology. Would you take the same view if someone was 'offensive' towards a political ideology 'loony left' 'Tory scum' or does the ideology have to have a supernatural entity attached?
 
Johno please? said:
Being offensive isnt fair? uh what?

Offense is taken not given. Its peoples choice if theyre offended over something someone has said.

Religion commands a lot of respect, when it deserves none.
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No. People deserve respect irrespective of their views. Their point may not deserve respect, but they should be treated how you'd expect to be treated.
 
Freefaller said:
No. People deserve respect irrespective of their views. Their point may not deserve respect, but they should be treated how you'd expect to be treated.
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I was taught that you have to earn respect not have it handed to you on a plate
 
dowie said:
We're talking about someone using condescending, disrespectful language towards an ideology.
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Surely if you can point at some facet of a religion or its followers where the issue was idiotic by our standards, then it is just pointing out a simple fact.
Scientology clearly brainwashes its members, therefore identifying it as a 'brainwashing cult' is a reasonable factual description.
Islamic cultures still believe in witchcraft, is it therefore not wholly reasonable to describe such cultures as backward?

I'm not sure it's reasonable to judge the issue by the amount of offence the other party takes, as if judged by their cultural standards I would be beheaded for suggesting Islam isn't the best and most perky ideology outside of North Korea.

In regards to the angry white boy taking extreme offense on behalf of Islam, I don't really have a lot of respect for his trolling. I'm sure he imagines I don't like muslims, when actually the only people I don't like are Politically Correct white kids.
Richie said:
Bear in mind, France did not bring in this law to persecute Muslims, it was brought in as a security/safety issue.
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That was just one part of the ECHR ruling, the main issue was its negative influence on French Secular culture.

To be fair to French muslims, this was brought in mainly to appease the French right wing who were up in arms about excessive muslim immigration and the ghettos it created.
France has a long Catholic history and this is causing a lot of social problems for them, most of France is concerned about the rise of Islam in their culture.

It won't happen here, Cameron is sucking up harder than a working girl down to her last bag of crack.
 
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Freefaller said:
Well I like to afford people the benefit of the doubt, and treat them like I'd expect to be treated. Manners cost nothing. :)
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This was the point I was trying to get across, while I clearly came about it in the wrong way (as an angry white boy islam apologist troll apparently), its still doesn't make up for a clear disrespect of the beliefs of millions.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, however when it is used to belittle someones belief system by continually mocking them then IMO it is wrong.

If this conversation was about gay rights and someone started mocking them repeatedly then I would have said something too.

If it was about christians, same applies.

The line between having an opinion and a debate and being deliberately disrespectful is quite clear.
 
The point of a debate is to have an opinion and to refute those that hold the opposite position, not whine about how other people's opinion is presented because someone's culture demands respect on pain of death.
Why don't you make a proper thread on the issue instead of ruining this one with your childish trolling of my posts?

Even odder is being offended on someone else's behalf, who made you mullah?
This thread after all is about the niqab and I don't see many muslims defending that as a good idea, they just don't like that someone would confront them over the issue.


Nobody chooses to be gay so it's unacceptable to condem their position, so that's a silly analogy.

If a religion is seriously undermined by people choosing not to believe then it's not a religion, it's a hobby for social inadaquates. Many Christians would regard an attack on their beliefs as simply the devil at work, and a welcome test of their spiritual faith, if not a wonderful opportunity to preach to unbelievers (see previous threads for examples of this very pattern)

All we here is a clash of cultures and an arrogant belief that the Islamic culture is entitled to respect, and nothing to do with Islam itself.
 
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You literally read none of that before accusing me of trolling!

I'm not arguing about your debate, only the insulting language you use to make it.

I'm not offended on someone elses behalf, you offended me directly as I consider your repeated use of choice words to be xenophobic and borderline actively saying it to cause an argument, which you seem to relish.

I know no one chooses to be gay, that's an irrelevant point to my argument as it wasn't an analogy. The point I was making is that whether you can choose to be something or not doesn't give someone the right to mock your ways.

There is no 'arrogant' belief that Islamic culture is entitled to respect, I believe all cultures are entitled to the right not to be mocked (especially where it isnt needed a'la your earlier posts). Yes you will predictably bring up a point that in the middle east or whatever christians or jews are persecuted or something to try and prove your point, however thast why I feel lucky enough to live in the UK where it doesn't happen.

Your choice to disagree with anything is exactly that, you can disagree with it. When you start using (what is at least to me) degoratory terms then maybe you should take a step back and think about it.
 
RDM said:
What if you find certain aspects of Islam deplorable, why should you be forced to respect it or even show it respect?
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I think insofar as that would you expect someone else who found a part of your own culture deplorable to make it quite publically known? Or would you expect them to be at least slightly tactile about it and not cause offence to you? While it may be their opinion it shouldnt necessarily be aired.

Consider the consumption of alcohol as an example, in quite a few cultures that is a deplorable act, yet I don't get spoken down to whilst im out shopping and get mocked as an alcoholic for the fact I might have a few tins of beer or something in my trolley. Therefore I don't contemplate the fact that I should be doing it to someone else.

Showing respect and being tolerant are two different things too, I think personally that whilst islamic views are not affecting my way of life in this country it is unfair to ask a muslim to have my views affect theirs. in this way I would consider my self to be more tolerant than showing respect, I think not being disrespectful in any case is respect enough.
 
Boycey0211 said:
I think insofar as that would you expect someone else who found a part of your own culture deplorable to make it quite publically known? Or would you expect them to be at least slightly tactile about it and not cause offence to you? While it may be their opinion it shouldnt necessarily be aired.
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Which brings us to (possibly) Burke: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

We find something to be wrong yet we just respect it because it is someone's religion? The ban against the niqab is a small step in dealing with the inherent misogyny in Islam.

Boycey0211 said:
Consider the consumption of alcohol as an example, in quite a few cultures that is a deplorable act, yet I don't get spoken down to whilst im out shopping and get mocked as an alcoholic for the fact I might have a few tins of beer or something in my trolley. Therefore I don't contemplate the fact that I should be doing it to someone else.
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But we have had at least one muslim in this thread decrying the short skirts that some women choose to where as being wrong. Was he out of order too?

Boycey0211 said:
Showing respect and being tolerant are two different things too, I think personally that whilst islamic views are not affecting my way of life in this country it is unfair to ask a muslim to have my views affect theirs. in this way I would consider my self to be more tolerant than showing respect, I think not being disrespectful in any case is respect enough.
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I am not really comfortable with the "I'm all right Jack" approach to problem solving though. If that was the case then I wouldn't really care for equal rights for women, homosexuals or racial equality being a straight white male.
 
Which brings us to (possibly) Burke: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

We find something to be wrong yet we just respect it because it is someone's religion? The ban against the niqab is a small step in dealing with the inherent misogyny in Islam.
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Fair point, but how much of it is our business to dictate to another religion how it should work? I think when you talk about cases of genocide, racially aggravated wars where there is a very real human impact then yes it is a case of having to step in and say 'this isn't right'. Every culture has been guilty of this at some point.

But we have had at least one muslim in this thread decrying the short skirts that some women choose to where as being wrong. Was he out of order too?
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To quote him 'I would rather my young girl covers herself than to wear short skirts and then grow up thinking it is ok to wear short/mini skirts. works both ways.'

Now this is open to interpretation and could mean anything inlcuding trousers. Think of christian parents saying 'you cant go out dressed like that!' to their daughter. However I'll roll with the point that if he actually meant a niqab in this case. What he didn't say is that it was ok to make it a human rights violation for people who DO choose to wear miniskirts, and he didn't, he meant it as his choice for his own daughter. In this case no I wouldn't say he was out of order.

I am not really comfortable with the "I'm all right Jack" approach to problem solving though. If that was the case then I wouldn't really care for equal rights for women, homosexuals or racial equality being a straight white male.
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Maybe I came over a litte wrong in that then, if I would clarify that then I would mean while you as a straight white male agree with the principles of rights for homosexuals, womens rights and racial equality, you do not take part in pride marches, feminist movements and you do still 'respect' those things.
 
Boycey0211 said:
You literally read none of that before accusing me of trolling!
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"Sorry couldn't resist, one last post, the best of bitslice' ramblings"

Off topic and intended to get a reaction from me = trolling :)


I'm not arguing about your debate, only the insulting language you use to make it.
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Deputy mods are not allowed.
Go look at my profile, it has five mods looking at it, they watch every post I make so you don't have to.

But to indulge you I've had a look at my posts and I'm still wondering what you are on about. Are you getting upset over "bin bags" & "ninjas"
What else would you call them? You know it's super cool to look like a ninja, right?

I'm not offended on someone elses behalf, you offended me directly as I consider your repeated use of choice words to be xenophobic and borderline actively saying it to cause an argument, which you seem to relish.
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If you define something as xenophobic they you are implicitly considering the feelings of a third party. If you are then offended by it then you are being offended on behalf of a third party.

Americans have a xenophobic word for Italians, (guinea), I personally don't care if an American calls an Italian a guinea. I don't feel the need to be offended on their behalf, or pre-empt an Italian's choice to be offended or not offended.

I know no one chooses to be gay, that's an irrelevant point to my argument as it wasn't an analogy.
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...and it's a subliminal slur to include it as part of an argument, it's a debating trick so of course I have to respond.


The point I was making is that whether you can choose to be something or not doesn't give someone the right to mock your ways.
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The basis of comedy is the mocking of differences, Germans putting towels on sunbeds for example, Ahmed, The Dead Terrorist is another.

There is no 'arrogant' belief that Islamic culture is entitled to respect,
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Yes there is, every time a western state does something which is fine by our cultural standards, there will be flag burning in some sandytoilet in the middle east. They are so used to everything being done according to their laws and their religion that they find it intolerable that we would dare to think differently.

Note that when we go to their country we are perfectly OK with following their silly laws and customs, but when we ask for the same respect in our country there are riots and poppy burning.

That is an arrogant belief in your own culture.

I believe all cultures are entitled to the right not to be mocked
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You must be forgetting the times when you've laughed at "'Ello 'Ello" then.

Your choice to disagree with anything is exactly that, you can disagree with it. When you start using (what is at least to me) degoratory terms then maybe you should take a step back and think about it.
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So far I've been called a "idiot racist moron" for stating the facts of this case, and that all my posts are "rambling nonsense". When actually I am one of the two people who has actually bothered to read the ECHR ruling that this thread is concerned with and have made more on topic posts that most.
This is par for the course with muslim threads, they are not interested in facts, they just want to censor all debate - see "arrogant culture" mentioned earlier.
 
Boycey0211 said:
Consider the consumption of alcohol as an example, in quite a few cultures that is a deplorable act, yet I don't get spoken down to whilst im out shopping and get mocked as an alcoholic for the fact I might have a few tins of beer or something in my trolley. Therefore I don't contemplate the fact that I should be doing it to someone else.
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Spoken down to? you would be thrown in prison and tortured, possibly even killed for drinking in some countries by the religious beliefs you are adamantly defending in this country. Get off your high horse and join the real world. Respect is earned not forced upon people.
 
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