workers rights

[Phantom Shadow]

I know you don't need to give the people you reject a reason to have rejected them, but if a woman/disabled/minority is rejected and then claims discrimination (either rightly or frivolously) do you not need to be able to give a reasonable reason why you hired someone else over her? CEOs gut instinct wouldn't be good enough I would have thought?

 

[Housey]

What excuses do companies use to hire the man though? You're going to need a fairly good reason as to why the man was better for the job otherwise you'd lose if they claimed discrimination, which many be difficult to come up with if both applicants are equally good.

I expect this sort of situation happens quite often though where the man gets the job because he won't be getting pregnant. It's not about not discriminating, it's about not being seen to discriminate. Might be wrong but companies don't want the hassle and if they can get away with it then they will.

If they are a new employee I don't need any excuse bar sorry, we went in a different direction. Business is often a lot simpler than people often make it sound.

 

[D.P.]

I know you don't need to give the people you reject a reason to have rejected them, but if a woman/disabled/minority is rejected and then claims discrimination (either rightly or frivolously) do you not need to be able to give a reasonable reason why you hired someone else over her? CEOs gut instinct wouldn't be good enough I would have thought?

If you have 2 similar candidates CEOs gut instinct is a sufficient reason (e.g., it is based on his experience of hires an understanding t of the company dynamics etc).
There would only be a case if the women was a much better candidate and somehow able to prove that. Something like more years experience might be considered proof. But then the employer can simply say they picked the less experienced person because they could offer a lower salary (even although they would have paid both candidates the same, there is no proof of that).


Winning a discrimination suit without solid proof that the discrimination was based on age/gender/sex/race/religion etc. wont go far. We are actually being sued for millions by someone who is claiming racial discrimination (an absurd claim,we offered him a C level position but the guy refused to sign a work contract then broke the law and stole money from us so we fired him), our lawyers just laughed at it.



If at the interview the women was asked questions about children, family life, attitudes to pregnancy etc and then didn't hire her there would be a case.

 

[Phantom Shadow]

Thanks for the info, not being involved in hiring I don't know how strict it is with things like discrimination. Glad to see companies generally can't be sued for going with gut instinct otherwise you'd never get anywhere.

 

[Haze]

we have rights? that would be nice

 

[MassiveJim]

i'm scared to partake in this thread anymore lol.

GF is seriously considering leaving as the stress just isn't worth it, the conditions in the café aren't great anyway 36oC today (planning permission for air-con refused by our stupid local council) and no breaks
she would not be entitled to maternity pay (so if her employer bothered to check that out she would know that already)

Although my OP has painted a certain picture of the situation that I probably can't explain my way around now I wanted to keep it as factual as possible.

Don't get me wrong I fully see this from a small business POV hence why I have repeatedly said not looking for special treatment or all out war with this woman, just to prevent this attitude she has had towards the GF since announcing the pregnancy.

GF works hard, very hard in fact and is good at her job. often asked to work extra hours with no notice, ie end of shift is 3, do you mind working till 5 today ?
no contract given to her yet
promised a certain shift rota at start that hasn't happened.
also she has not take 6 days off sick, she has taken 5 total, 1 being pregnancy related.

other staff comment that owner is lazy and doesn't put the work in that she should etc.



obviously not working there I don't fully understand the place but it seems very much to me she is not running a professional place and just doesn't want any hassle (which I get by the way) but I repeat again, you just don't treat people like that.
If it was me, the last thing I would want to ever do is stress out a pregnant woman and risk a baby's health.

To those of you who haven't attacked me, I appreciate your help and comments they have been very useful ~

 

[Housey]

i'm scared to partake in this thread anymore lol.

GF is seriously considering leaving as the stress just isn't worth it, the conditions in the café aren't great anyway 36oC today (planning permission for air-con refused by our stupid local council) and no breaks
she would not be entitled to maternity pay (so if her employer bothered to check that out she would know that already)

Although my OP has painted a certain picture of the situation that I probably can't explain my way around now I wanted to keep it as factual as possible.

Don't get me wrong I fully see this from a small business POV hence why I have repeatedly said not looking for special treatment or all out war with this woman, just to prevent this attitude she has had towards the GF since announcing the pregnancy.

GF works hard, very hard in fact and is good at her job. often asked to work extra hours with no notice, ie end of shift is 3, do you mind working till 5 today ?
no contract given to her yet
promised a certain shift rota at start that hasn't happened.
also she has not take 6 days off sick, she has taken 5 total, 1 being pregnancy related.

other staff comment that owner is lazy and doesn't put the work in that she should etc.



obviously not working there I don't fully understand the place but it seems very much to me she is not running a professional place and just doesn't want any hassle (which I get by the way) but I repeat again, you just don't treat people like that.
If it was me, the last thing I would want to ever do is stress out a pregnant woman and risk a baby's health.

To those of you who haven't attacked me, I appreciate your help and comments they have been very useful ~

OP I am not getting at you, honestly I'm not, but your post again is very telling when you read between the lines and is so common when people start to moan about their lot.

The owner may be lazy I have no idea, but it seems she built and runs a business that is making money that allows her to employ and pay people a wage. You say she is not running a professional place and again I have no idea, but if that is the case then why doesn't your girlfriend leave and find a more professional place, or, if this is the view start her own more professional place? In my book 5 days off in 3 months is a lot, not least if it is not pregnancy related as you suggest (if I read that right) and we are only getting one side of the story.

However I also appreciate that some companies can be a bloody nightmare and if your girlfriend is suffering stress then she needs to do something about it. Find another job and my advice would be be clear on the pregnancy. She is doing I believe unskilled work (no inference, just assuming this is the case as it's a cafe) so that is a very fluid type of job. Going to a company and being open, saying I have 5 good months in me then will need to have a baby is probably going to suit some companies, not least as winter time will probably see a slow down in business where a reduction in headcount might help.

You are trying to be objective I sense that, but you are, rightly so, taking your girlfriends side on this totally. I say again that is what you should do, but I suspect there are 2 sides and presently we just have yours.

 

[MassiveJim]

OP I am not getting at you, honestly I'm not, but your post again is very telling when you read between the lines and is so common when people start to moan about their lot.

The owner may be lazy I have no idea, but it seems she built and runs a business that is making money that allows her to employ and pay people a wage. You say she is not running a professional place and again I have no idea, but if that is the case then why doesn't your girlfriend leave and find a more professional place, or, if this is the view start her own more professional place? In my book 5 days off in 3 months is a lot, not least if it is not pregnancy related as you suggest (if I read that right) and we are only getting one side of the story.

However I also appreciate that some companies can be a bloody nightmare and if your girlfriend is suffering stress then she needs to do something about it. Find another job and my advice would be be clear on the pregnancy. She is doing I believe unskilled work (no inference, just assuming this is the case as it's a cafe) so that is a very fluid type of job. Going to a company and being open, saying I have 5 good months in me then will need to have a baby is probably going to suit some companies, not least as winter time will probably see a slow down in business where a reduction in headcount might help.

You are trying to be objective I sense that, but you are, rightly so, taking your girlfriends side on this totally. I say again that is what you should do, but I suspect there are 2 sides and presently we just have yours.

Thanks for the post mate
I have to agree with you 100%
I am trying to be objective but, yes ultimately I will take the GFs side.

when She came home very upset after speaking with her boss
I had to make it clear to her,
I pretty much said the following
" look at it from your bosses side, you have been there 3 months, you have taken time off, she thinks 6 days but you need to speak with her and prove it to be less, and now you told her your are pregnant, I would be peed off in her position, it is a small business not a huge multinational like my employer. it will be a PITA for her "

as for looking for another job, there aint much around here to be honest, less options available now as well as we decided to sell GFs car to save money with baby on the way. she did find a 2nd part time job and told the guy up front she was pregnant and he was absolutely fine with it. I don't think realistically anyone would take her on at this point do you ?

And it's café work, whilst it isn't completely unskilled I do tend to agree with you it isn't hard to do, but GF takes pride in her work and does a better job than most. has previous experience in cafes as well so pretty much walked in and picked the job straight up

 

[Housey]

Thanks for the post mate
I have to agree with you 100%
I am trying to be objective but, yes ultimately I will take the GFs side.

when She came home very upset after speaking with her boss
I had to make it clear to her,
I pretty much said the following
" look at it from your bosses side, you have been there 3 months, you have taken time off, she thinks 6 days but you need to speak with her and prove it to be less, and now you told her your are pregnant, I would be peed off in her position, it is a small business not a huge multinational like my employer. it will be a PITA for her "

as for looking for another job, there aint much around here to be honest, less options available now as well as we decided to sell GFs car to save money with baby on the way. she did find a 2nd part time job and told the guy up front she was pregnant and he was absolutely fine with it. I don't think realistically anyone would take her on at this point do you ?

And it's café work, whilst it isn't completely unskilled I do tend to agree with you it isn't hard to do, but GF takes pride in her work and does a better job than most. has previous experience in cafes as well so pretty much walked in and picked the job straight up

Frankly no, she isn't going to find it easy unless she is exceptional and frankly very few people are that exceptional that pregnancy doesn't become an issue at some point in a small business. Does she plan to seek employment after giving birth?

 

[Surveyor]

If they are a new employee I don't need any excuse bar sorry, we went in a different direction. Business is often a lot simpler than people often make it sound.

You may use that as your reasoning but you can be taken to an Employment Tribunal if someone believes there's been discrmination in the recruitment process because of gender.

You could end up having to prove why you employed a man instead of a woman and I doubt "we went in a different direction" would suffice.

 

[Housey]

You may use that as your reasoning but you can be taken to an Employment Tribunal if someone believes there's been discrmination in the recruitment process because of gender.

You could end up having to prove why you employed a man instead of a woman and I doubt "we went in a different direction" would suffice.

It would suffice because if I went in a different direction it would be for good reason that I would be able to clearly support and justify, not because "she was a woman". There is no obligation on any employer to justify why someone didn't get a role. If they believe they know why and that is unfair then they should feel free to fill their boots in court.

 

[MassiveJim]

Frankly no, she isn't going to find it easy unless she is exceptional and frankly very few people are that exceptional that pregnancy doesn't become an issue at some point in a small business. Does she plan to seek employment after giving birth?

Plans to take full 39 weeks maternity leave before returning to work.

oh also GF just opened a letter from café owner, she has given her final written warning. So now we have to appeal that.

My prediction for this whole situation is that it will not end on good terms between the 2 of them.