Upcoming games to support DirectX

[TheRealDeal]

I really hope DX12 is nothing like Mantle, the further away from that crap the better. Does everyone really want botched implementations, fixes, patches, excuses, games out even before the API is ready, and that's before we have to start fixing and patching games themselves.

Comedy gold right there. You just described a lot of big releases on the PC. Mantle is in Beta so most of this is expected just like many games we play these days which are released but still in beta. If EA had not put pressure on Dice to release BF4 mantle would have been a feature on release because it would have likely released a lot later.

 

[Admiral Huddy]

Thread cleaned as best i can and reopened.


If I have to delete any further posts in this thread from any member which i have just removed, you will get a minimum 7 day suspension.. You've all been warned.

 

[PhysicsMan94]

Thankfully they will have the option of using it or not. It could be worse, just imagine if Nvidia were forced to run Mantle and it was then used to judge and benchmark Nvidia cards. Imagine if Nvidia had to use one version of Mantle and AMD was able to use a completely different version that runs 7 times faster on their hardware. Does this sound familiar?

But the whole point is that many AMD reps have stated that they want Mantle to be the industry standard and they think that it could be. However, neither Intel nor Nvidia will adopt Mantle in any meaningful form for the reasons I gave above.

So, we come to a point where we think - so what's the point in Mantle even existing beyond D3D 12? To give AMD users a slight performance boost despite the hassle of developers having to integrate it into their game engine in order to give a few customers this boost? For this reason I think that Mantle will not last long, developers will not want to spend much time or money on something which will only end up slightly benefiting a few people.

As for your last point, let's not start the GameWorks argument again - it's already been made abundantly clear that the original GW "gimping" claims were fabricated and had no leg to stand on, we don't need to respark that whole pointless debate here

 

[Silent_Scone]

you know jealousy and envy make ppl do weird things.
because when i break down the context i fail to find any other logical explanation to this thread.
why would you care that someone is excited about an API that will not affect you in any way, to push yourself to make a thread to be sarcastic and condescending toward ppl talking between themselves about stuff they care about.

Lol come on...don't sound bitter. It's quite a good way of making a point.

The point that it's every game due to be released...ever

 

[humbug]

But the whole point is that many AMD reps have stated that they want Mantle to be the industry standard and they think that it could be. However, neither Intel nor Nvidia will adopt Mantle in any meaningful form for the reasons I gave above.

So, we come to a point where we think - so what's the point in Mantle even existing beyond D3D 12? To give AMD users a slight performance boost despite the hassle of developers having to integrate it into their game engine in order to give a few customers this boost? For this reason I think that Mantle will not last long, developers will not want to spend much time or money on something which will only end up slightly benefiting a few people.

As for your last point, let's not start the GameWorks argument again - it's already been made abundantly clear that the original GW "gimping" claims were fabricated and had no leg to stand on, we don't need to respark that whole pointless debate here

I think this has already been answered elsewhere.

The difference is DX12 will suffer from the same problem DX11 does.

Its a generic API with some bells and whistles on it, thats all it can be as it needs to have multiple execution layers to emulate a commonality between multiple vendors.
The end result is it treats Intel, Nvidia, AMD Qualcomm no differently to one or the other.

Mantle isn't just a low level API, its AMD's low level API built specifically for their own programmable architecture.
What that means is AMD can use it to program that architecture in ways that DirectX can't.

With it you can press a few buttons to work in ways or do things that you can't in DirectX.

There is no reason why Intel and Nvidia can't make Mantle their own by reworking it to program their own architectures, this i suspect is why Intel are so keen to get a look at it.

 

[uksoldierboy]

But the whole point is that many AMD reps have stated that they want Mantle to be the industry standard and they think that it could be. However, neither Intel nor Nvidia will adopt Mantle in any meaningful form for the reasons I gave above.

So, we come to a point where we think - so what's the point in Mantle even existing beyond D3D 12? To give AMD users a slight performance boost despite the hassle of developers having to integrate it into their game engine in order to give a few customers this boost? For this reason I think that Mantle will not last long, developers will not want to spend much time or money on something which will only end up slightly benefiting a few people.

As for your last point, let's not start the GameWorks argument again - it's already been made abundantly clear that the original GW "gimping" claims were fabricated and had no leg to stand on, we don't need to respark that whole pointless debate here

But it's not just a few customers though is it? Mantle will still be here when the next round of AMD cards hit, surely the whole line up will support Mantle?

There's no way we can say with 100% certainty that DX12 will provide the same level of performance that Mantle currently does?

I hope it does, but that remains to be seen, as for Mantle, the performance is there for all to see right now.

It's not just on systems with crap CPUs, As far as i can see it's across all system that use either the 290 or 290X, regardless of the cpu.

As i mentioned earlier, even on my system, with my cpu @4.6 and gpu clocked at 1200/1400, i see around a 20fps avg performance jump using Mantle in BF4, the same with with mins and max.

 

[Ian Evey]

As i mentioned earlier, even on my system, with my cpu @4.6 and gpu clocked at 1200/1400, i see around a 20fps avg performance jump using Mantle in BF4, the same with with mins and max.

I dont think anyone would disagree that for amd cards dx vs mantle in bf4 is a win for mantle, Nvidia like for like cards vs mantle is a lot closer than most think.

There are only 2 reasons for it to be so close nvidia dx vs amd mantle and those are that either>

1. Amd have not optimised for dx on BF4 in a while.

2. Amd have optimised as much as they can in Dx on BF4.

 

[LtMatt]

I dont think anyone would disagree that for amd cards dx vs mantle in bf4 is a win for mantle, Nvidia like for like cards vs mantle is a lot closer than most think.

There are only 2 reasons for it to be so close nvidia dx vs amd mantle and those are that either>

1. Amd have not optimised for dx on BF4 in a while.

2. Amd have optimised as much as they can in Dx on BF4.

In Battlefield 4 that is a myth Ian. This is the order of merit in BF4.

AMD Mantle > AMD DX > Nvidia DX At 1080P and above at the highest settings. That relates to average fps, frame times, frame variance and consistency.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

I think this has already been answered elsewhere.

The difference is DX12 will suffer from the same problem DX11 does.

Its a generic API with some bells and whistles on it, thats all it can be as it needs to have multiple execution layers to emulate a commonality between multiple vendors.
The end result is it treats Intel, Nvidia, AMD Qualcomm no differently to one or the other.

Mantle isn't just a low level API, its AMD's low level API built specifically for their own programmable architecture.
What that means is AMD can use it to program that architecture in ways that DirectX can't.

With it you can press a few buttons to work in ways or do things that you can't in DirectX.

There is no reason why Intel and Nvidia can't make Mantle their own by reworking it to program their own architectures, this i suspect is why Intel are so keen to get a look at it.

Surely if Mantle start to support Nvidia and Intel as AMD seem to want that means it has to do the same as DirectX?
If you think Mantle can find a way around the issues associated with this, why can't DX12?

There's also the question of how much would Nvidia and Intel be allowed to rework it, what with AMD retaining complete control.
Making the existing interface work with your stuff is very different from being able to expose your own functions and modify existing ones that have all been written to suit AMD.
Would Nvidia and Intel see the same performance boost that AMD hardware does? If not how much better than DX12 would it be (I think it's a given that DX12 won't be quite as good as Mantle)? Would it even be worth it?
I think it also depends on how much of Mantle's performance comes purely from the draw call improvement as that's something I imagine DX12 could get very close on.

To give an example of where a few button presses can enable Mantle to do something DX doesn't, just see the posts about Mantle hitting VRAM limits in BF4/Frostbite while DX doesn't

 

[uksoldierboy]

In Battlefield 4 that is a myth Ian. This is the order of merit in BF4.

AMD Mantle > AMD DX > Nvidia DX At 1080P and above at the highest settings. That relates to average fps, frame times, frame variance and consistency.

I'd agree, even running it on DX11 i'm still clearing well over 100+ fps avg per map.

 

[Ian Evey]

All I can say is my 780 + 3570k on a full 64 player zavod server @ 1920x1200 ultra setting not this custom reducing aa post ect, got 82 average. Would that rise much @ 1080 res or with a 3770k I wonder.

It might be a myth or it might be true, Who really can test it though with an unbiased opinion and above board testing, Only 1 name comes to my mind but he ain't got a 290 or a 780, Or a 780ti

 

[Boomstick777]

Nvidia + DX > AMD + Mangle > AMD + DX

 

[Ian Evey]

Like I said, who could we trust to really test it, Every bf4 game is different with different things going on in mp, I certainly would not be running a titan or ti at 700mhz and 800 MHz though so the graphs really don't mean a lot.

 

[humbug]

I dont think anyone would disagree that for amd cards dx vs mantle in bf4 is a win for mantle, Nvidia like for like cards vs mantle is a lot closer than most think.

There are only 2 reasons for it to be so close nvidia dx vs amd mantle and those are that either>

1. Amd have not optimised for dx on BF4 in a while.

2. Amd have optimised as much as they can in Dx on BF4.

Actually DX on AMD is better than DX on Nvidia in BF4, Mantle is better than both by an order of magnitude.

 

[Ian Evey]

If only there was a benchmark in bf4.

 

[triss]

If only there was a benchmark in bf4.

+1 yes its hard to truly compare a game without one, Yes you can start at point A run to point B but with especially a online game so much else can happen in one run that doesnt in another.

 

[PhysicsMan94]

Actually DX on AMD is better than DX on Nvidia in BF4

To be expected from a GE title really, and the funny thing is that that doesn't bother me. Whereas the fact that Nvidia performance in TWIMTBP titles is better than AMD overall seems to annoy a few AMD users.

Mantle is better than both by an order of magnitude.

Incorrect. From the benchmarks I have seen, the maximum increase in minimum fps was around 2.5x, maximum increase in average fps around 2x (maybe a little less actually) and the maximum fps actually seems to decrease from D3D11 to Mantle. All in all, those figures do not come near to an order of magnitude.

 

[tayto_0]

I read those last three deleted posts last night and they were perfectly fine Just a bit of banter amongst friend, the usual Boom and Matt back-and-forth ?

I'm sorry but the moderating in this thread has been all over the the place

 

[LtMatt]

I read those last three deleted posts last night and they were perfectly fine Just a bit of banter amongst friend, the usual Boom and Matt back-and-forth ?

I'm sorry but the moderating in this thread has been all over the the place

Yes i was surprised to see those deleted to be honest, even Broom would've known it was just a bit of a laugh.

 

[tayto_0]

I know, there was nothing in them at all! baffling!