Is Putin being made into a scapegoat?

[MikeTheNative]

It seems that Russia didn't even supply the missile launcher and that the rebels actually stole it from the Ukraine army. We and the US have been supplying the Syrian Rebels but we don't have figures for how many civilians they have accidentally killed in their war. I'm going to hazard a guess it's a lot more than the 298 than died in the plane.

 

[aslco]

or is our understanding of the whole region just naive and ridiculous?

I think this is a given really. It's important we remember that Russia has often "done the right thing" when push comes to shove and has historically been a very imprtant "ally". The issue is the general ideaology there that's formed in order to keep everyone in line is very different to our own.

I hate that they have the homophobic laws and I'm sure there's a lot of unjust in the country, but their foreign policy is often admirable compared to ours - and that says a lot.

 

[Zethor]

I hate that they have the homophobic laws and I'm sure there's a lot of unjust in the country, but their foreign policy is often admirable compared to ours - and that says a lot.

How is it admirable that your allies consist of dictatorships? How do you lads come up with these inane comments, is there a site or something?

 

[aslco]

As for the claim of International Relations Mastery, tell me, who are Russia's allies? Belarus? Kazakhstan? Wow, look out America! What countries can Russia influence? The US started the war in Iraq with no reason and no proof of WMDs yet 13 countries, from the UK to Georgia, from Poland to Australia, helped them. They didn't use threats to convince them, they didn't blackmail them, they just asked and those countries complied. That's what it means to have Power. Russia has none of that.

You're right in that US is certainly stil the biggest power. However, its worth noting that Brazil and China are probably more left-leaning and as they keep progressing they will have more say in what will happen and that's when significant shift may occur.

 

[Zethor]

You're right in that US is certainly stil the biggest power. However, its worth noting that Brazil and China are probably more left-leaning and as they keep progressing they will have more say in what will happen and that's when significant shift may occur.

Brazil, China and India need decades of progress before they even begin to catch up with the current centers of power: the US, the EU and the Asian tigers (Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea, and Taiwan) along with Japan. Interestingly, all of these countries are functional democracies, I wonder why that is.

 

[aslco]

How is it admirable that your allies consist of dictatorships? How do you lads come up with these inane comments, is there a site or something?

Allies having dictatorships isn't the main part of foreign policy in my eyes. China is USAs ally in a purely objective point of view and they're a one party state...

I think Russia and China veto'ing going into Syria was a very good call. People argue it was because Russia allowed people to buy their weapons, but atleast they weren't actively sending them in as charity into the country like the US and its allies.

I don't like the lack of social movement in Russia and it's certainly corrupt, but i just think we often miss looking closer to home too as we're guilty of corruption and lack of democracy. It's important that we have some form of opposition in the world otherwise it'd be even more of a monopoly than it is now.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

The headlines I've seen today are insane. The Daily Express, who obviously have very accurate information (as well as a load of other papers) are claiming that Putin is the cause of the missile launch. He may not be an angel, but they're just spreading ******** as far as we know. It's mad that they're allowed to publish stories like that, despite freedom of speech. It's one thing trying to uncover the truth, and it's another completely telling outright lies.

 

[Zethor]

I think Russia and China veto'ing going into Syria was a very good call. People argue it was because Russia allowed people to buy their weapons, but atleast they weren't actively sending them in as charity into the country like the US and its allies.

Foreign policy is all about who your friends and who your enemies are. Russia has lots of enemies (mostly neighbours) and few allies (mostly dictatorships, former soviet republics).

Furthermore, Russia and China are not allies. China didn't veto the Syria vote - it would have passed without Russia's veto.
EDIT: My mistake, I was thinking about the Crimeea vote, China abstained and it would have passed without the Russian veto.

 

[Zethor]

The headlines I've seen today are insane. The Daily Express, who obviously have very accurate information (as well as a load of other papers) are claiming that Putin is the cause of the missile launch. He may not be an angel, but they're just spreading ******** as far as we know. It's mad that they're allowed to publish stories like that, despite freedom of speech. It's one thing trying to uncover the truth, and it's another completely telling outright lies.

He is the cause of the missile launch. He started the rebellion with the annexation of Crimeea and he supported it afterwards.

 

[aslco]

Foreign policy is all about who your friends and who your enemies are. Russia has lots of enemies (mostly neighbours) and few allies (mostly dictatorships, former soviet republics).

Furthermore, Russia and China are not allies. China didn't veto the Syria vote - it would have passed without Russia's veto.

Ahh my bad, China jsut abstained? My point still remains about Russia though.

People band about the dictatorship statement a lot. I fully believe in democracy and liberalism and the PR vote. However, UKs current setup is a poor version of Democracy as is the US's tbh. The voting system in the US is intelligent, but its a monopoly of two parties. In the UK we at least allow the emergence of new parties and limit party advertising, but out voting systems are horrendous. 25% of the vote yet 8% of the seats for one party last general election - what on earth are we to think of that!?

Also, read up on Belarus' dictatorship and you may understand why that side of the world have a tenancy to govern in that way.

My point still remains that Russia aren't exactly the friendliest nation, but they don't spread damn lies quite as much as the west do at any given opportunity and they've done a lot that i think the world can be thankful for.

 

[areksnumbr1sxylady]

In isolated case, Yes putin is horrible and should burn in hell for the downing of that plane.

But what about our illegal invasion of Iraq where thousands have died, what about Libya? A country that so messed up now that US planes are forbidden to fly over that area.

If west didnt support rebels in Syria, would the war still be happening or it would be over within weeks with Assad victory??

Would we see the rise of ISIS if not of our support for the rebels.

In the end, Putin is responsible for these deaths but who the hell we are to lecture him on it? We have so much more blood on our hands...

We talk about about East Germany and how horrible Stasi kept all records on people and the KGB, what about the NSA???

The list just goes on and on........

The whole Idea I cant understand, is why rebels in Syria and Libya are freedom fighters while the ones in Ukraine are Russian terrorists?? Does someone have a some sort of guideline which specifically defines at what point the terrorists become rebel fighters and vice versa??

 

[dirtychinchilla]

He is the cause of the missile launch. He started the rebellion with the annexation of Crimeea and he supported it afterwards.

Yeah, fine, I get that, but I very much doubt that anyone, particularly not a newspaper in the UK has evidence that shows that an order that in any way came from him caused these rebels to launch a missile at a passenger aircraft.

 

[robfosters]

Just so sad and easily avoided. I mean if I can point my ipad camera towards the sky and get the flight numbers and destinations of every plane in the sky, why the hell didn't they make sure?

 

[Ryan-3]

No, he's just being shown for the **** that he is.

Past actions lead to these events. Giving a bunch of rabble rebels these weapons mean this stuff can and will happen. Putin is largely to blame in the cause of this.

 

[sven256]

It seems that Russia didn't even supply the missile launcher and that the rebels actually stole it from the Ukraine army. We and the US have been supplying the Syrian Rebels but we don't have figures for how many civilians they have accidentally killed in their war. I'm going to hazard a guess it's a lot more than the 298 than died in the plane.

Could not agree more.

Added to the fact isn't it perfect timing to build up more anti eastern sentiments, which America has been doing for a while.

 

[McBain]

No, he's just being shown for the **** that he is.

 

[SPG]

Putin is a fool, nothing more he is trying to play the cold war game whilst signing up his country to the financial game of the rest of the world. He will make great short term gains but when sanctions start to bite (and there are showing that) his popularity within Russia will wane. The russians are liking there holidays to the Maldives, shiny BMW and iphones this is being withdrawn more and more.

Besides he signed up for the gas deal with China very very quickly to tide him over. Europe and the US wont act much apart from increase sanctions. This is long game and it will win out. The Ukraine getting closer ties with europe will be a major thorn in his side. It will get richer over time comapared to Russia and aside from WAR there is nothing he can do about it now and Russia cant afford war apart from Nuclear and if that happens every one is dead anyway apart from Putin in his bunker.

But hey ho Stalin put the nail in the russian coffin, its now rusty and bent but putin is still trying to hammer it back into the hole.

 

[wildman]

Putin is a fool, nothing more he is trying to play the cold war game whilst signing up his country to the financial game of the rest of the world. He will make great short term gains but when sanctions start to bite (and there are showing that) his popularity within Russia will wane. The russians are liking there holidays to the Maldives, shiny BMW and iphones this is being withdrawn more and more.

Besides he signed up for the gas deal with China very very quickly to tide him over. Europe and the US wont act much apart from increase sanctions. This is long game and it will win out. The Ukraine getting closer ties with europe will be a major thorn in his side. It will get richer over time comapared to Russia and aside from WAR there is nothing he can do about it now and Russia cant afford war apart from Nuclear and if that happens every one is dead anyway apart from Putin in his bunker.

But hey ho Stalin put the nail in the russian coffin, its now rusty and bent but putin is still trying to hammer it back into the hole.

Sanctions or not, the west (Europe) still need his gas. We know that, he knows that, thus anything they pull on him is meaningless unless they decide to get their gas from somewhere else.

 

[drunkenmaster]

USA/UK invade places with effectively no british people, no right to be there, illegal by every international standard law..... nothing. A part of Ukraine which used to be part of Russian, which is full of Russian people wants to break away and be part of Russia.... Russia supports them........ EVIL, terrible, lets kill them all, blah blah blah.

UK/USA would do what Russia did in a heartbeat, in fact they do worse on a yearly basis for the past 50 years(funding and training Bin Laden for one). UK/USA are making a huge deal over it because they don't like the idea of Russia betting a bit stronger, but when it's them, it's fine to invade Iraq, support Israel, blow the crap out of Afghanistan, help support or topple governments in the region as and when they choose.

Russia haven't done anything wrong, the only thing prolonging the Crimea situation is US/UK being hypocritical and insisting on involving themselves rather than just letting Crimea sort itself out and do what it wants.

Yes Putin is being made a scapegoat, US/uk don't give a **** about 300 civilians, they care that it will help them in terms of preventing Russia annexing Crimea properly, it's political for them and for Putin.

They are all as bad as each other, they care about power, money and preserving both. If Crimea happened to have a history of us citizens being the majority population, they'd probably try and succeed and declare themselves part of America, with american support to break out, and Russia would complain it's part of the Ukraine.

 

[ennogs]

The Soviet Union was a complicated murderous place, between Stalin, WWI and WWII there could have been up to 100million people killed in all kind of manners. That must have left a lot scars on the people to this day, whether they admit it or not.

We have seen what an happen when you lift the lid a country like Iraq, groups can form and fight for power and anarchy can follow.

Putin is a statesman I think at least we can say. Maybe he is just the stubborn bad guy or maybe he knows how to keep Russia from turning into the next Iraq.

Our papers are plastered with, 'Putin the terrorist' etc, is this really justified or is our understanding of the whole region just naive and ridiculous?

Until there has been an investigation our papers are jumping the gun blaming Russia for the shooting down of the plane. As far as I am aware there is no bad blood between Russia and Malaysia and there is no bad blood between Russia and the Netherlands.

Why would Russia shoot the plane down? Why would the Russian separatists shoot down the plane? Surely both the Russians and the separatists would know the world would turn against them for shooting down the plane.

As far as the shooting down of the plane is concerned you have to ask "Cui bono". I would say the Ukrainians benefited as now the western press is reporting Russia or the separatists using Russian military equipment shot down the plane. The world has now turned against Russia and the separatists. The world is now on Ukraine's side.

Also why was a commercial plane flying over a war zone? All other airlines had stopped flying over the war zone. Allegedly the previous 10 Malaysian flights from Amsterdam had avoided flying over the war zone. Why did the 11th flight fly over a war zone?