Voice your opposition to the Israeli actions for the past 65+ years

RDM said:
Think what you like, I know I was talking about the wider context, sorry that doesn't fit the narrow context you would prefer to argue. Think what you wish about my impartiality or otherwise, at this point it really doesn't matter.

Until Hamas change their stated aims then neither side seems all that interested in a two state solution.
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You can talk about what you like, but why you quoted me in that context is somewhat pointless. You were the one arguing, I made a statement based solely on the sentiment in Craterloads paragraph, you decided to question that even though the paragraph clearly stated a Two State Solution and what Hamas thinks is immaterial to either Craterloads paragraph or my reply to it.

You questioned me, not the other way around...when I pointed out the context and nature of what Craterloads stated as opposed to what you thought or what Hamas' position may be, you got all defensive as you are now. You made an error, but haven't the gumption to admit it. I know you don't care what I think, but there it is nonetheless.
 
RDM said:
I know there was a "ceasefire" but that generally means fewer rockets from Gaza and less bombs from Israel rather than none.
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Given that Hamas isn't the only group operating in Gaza you cannot attribute every rocket launch to them. Do you have figures for the rocket attacks since the ceasefire? Or are you making an assumption?
 
Castiel said:
Given that Hamas isn't the only group operating in Gaza you cannot attribute every rocket launch to them. Do you have figures for the rocket attacks since the ceasefire? Or are you making an assumption?
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

There is a year by year break down too. No assumptions needed.

So no, rocket attacks haven't really stopped. I am sure though that every single one during the ceasefire had nothing at all to do with Hamas and they did everything they could to bring the perpetrators to justice. :)
 
Hamas just has to stop firing rockets and there will be a ceasefire, no brokering necessary. But they intend to draw this out until they can get some of their militants in Israeli prisons released. Meanwhile their city is being leveled.
 
RDM said:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

There is a year by year break down too. No assumptions needed.

So no, rocket attacks haven't really stopped. I am sure though that every single one during the ceasefire had nothing at all to do with Hamas and they did everything they could to bring the perpetrators to justice. :)
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I read that, I just wondered if you had..because if you had then you would see that Hamas, while responsible for some are not the only group responsible, neither are all the attacks from Gaza, a number of them come from Egypt. You will also note that after the last official ceasefire Hamas cracked down on rocket attacks and there were none reported for several months until the killing in custody of Palestinians by Israeli forces and the refusal to abide by the agreement to reopen the Rafah Crossing.

This goes both ways, neither side is keeping to the terms of the agreed ceasefires, and each are operating incursions into each other's territory. Are Hamas responsible for every rocket fired at Israel, should the Palestinian people be collectively punished for the acts of militant groups? Not if Israel was as progressive and peaceful as it says...we didn't collectively punish the Republic of Ireland for the acts of militant groups originating there, or indeed blame one Group for the acts of other splinter groups...we still do not attribute the acts of a terrorist splinter group to its ideological brethren...and we keep to the terms we agree in a ceasefire also. That is not to say we were not guilty of our own crimes and mistakes in our own homegrown conflict, but we didn't act like the Israelis either, even in the face of civilian massacres and constant threats to our towns and cities.

Again, this is another reason why Craterloads paragraph set aside the conflict itself...because in order to get an agreement in which each side will feel fulfils their objectives and needs we need to ignore the conflict itself, because if we keep concentrating only on the conflict and not on the resolutions then nothing will ever change....our own experience in Northern Ireland shows this as does the situation in South Africa.
 
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jaws104 said:
Hamas just has to stop firing rockets and there will be a ceasefire, no brokering necessary. But they intend to draw this out until they can get some of their militants in Israeli prisons released. Meanwhile their city is being leveled.
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But Hamas don't want the ceasefire because its making them important in the eyes of their power base. Not that i'm condoning Israel, I think this whole thing is nothing more than a punishment action for those three Israeli kids (which speculation says was not actually Hamas) but it fits the rhetoric of both sides. Hamas needs Israelis to act like the big bad tough guy and Netanyahu wants to be seen as the big bad tough guy.
 
RDM said:
Do you have more accurate numbers from another source? If not then those are the ones we will have to go with. The point still stands that "ceasefire" means less conflict rather than no conflict and that rocket attacks never really stopped, just lessened and air strikes never really stopped just lessened.
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There were no rocket attacks from Gaza for several months after the ceasefire in nov 2012. It escalated again when a Palestinian prisoner was killed in custody and the terms of the original ceasefire (opening of the Rafah Crossing) did not materialise.

The Mujahideen Shura Council, who claimed responsibility for the initial rocket attacks also claimed that Hamas was arresting those it found to be breaking the ceasefire..Hamas denied this however, but it was found that Salafist fighters were in custody shortly after the rocket attacks.

However, it is virtually a constant tit for tat, with each side not willing to compromise or talk about a long term solution.
 
Devlish said:
But Hamas don't want the ceasefire because its making them important in the eyes of their power base. Not that i'm condoning Israel, I think this whole thing is nothing more than a punishment action for those three Israeli kids (which speculation says was not actually Hamas) but it fits the rhetoric of both sides. Hamas needs Israelis to act like the big bad tough guy and Netanyahu wants to be seen as the big bad tough guy.
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Actually, I think you will find that Hamas want Israel to return to the state it was in round about 1945.

Israel knows that Hamas represents the Palestinian majority, certainly in Gaza. Israel cannot cope with any sort of rapprochement between Hamas and Fatah. The death of the three Israeli teenagers was an absolute God-send for the Israelis, they could point the finger at Hamas and re-arrest hundreds of Hamas supporters who were released recently in exchange for Gilad Shalit. This was bound to lead to a futile reaction by Hamas and then the Israelis could escalate their relentless attacks on Gaza. The US, UK and others would talk about Israel's right to defend itself and look the other way while Israel indiscriminately slaughtered hundreds of Palestinians.


Incidentally, there is another demonstration in London this weekend (Saturday July 26th):
Assemble outside the Israeli embassy (High Street Kensington, London) at midday
For a march to Parliament
Rally at Parliament at 2.30pm​
Hope to see some of you at the Israeli Embassy in Kensington at midday on Saturday. Meanwhile, do please write to your MP protesting at the British Government's unquestioning support of Israeli Terrorism - https://www.writetothem.com/.
 
Tombo said:
Of course they wouldn't, that's why they don't support the Israelis trying to force out natives.
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Not from what I'm reading or they are just massive hypocrites. Would love to see how some people here would behave and what they would deem 'acceptable' if someone suddenly occupied their land and started to systematically wipe them out.

How Israel is getting away with this, defies belief. Where's our almighty and righteous foreign policy now?
 
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