Hong Kong: foreign policy failure or legitimate former colonial interest?

[scorza]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-inquiry-into-progress-of-hong-kong-democracy

Chinese authorities have demanded Britain drop an inquiry into the progress of democratic reforms in Hong Kong, accusing it of “highly inappropriate” interference in its affairs, the BBC has reported.

The broadcaster said it had seen a letter from China’s foreign affairs committee to its British counterpart condemning the probe into the state of democracy since Hong Kong was handed over to Chinese control in 1997.

What with Russia doing its best Nazi Germany impersonation taking Europe back to the 1930s, and Islamic State plunging the middle east to new depths of violence and depravity, I would have thought the last think we'd want to do is get involved in another foreign policy spat we won't win against China, yet that's exactly what we have done.

As much as I sympathise with the people of Hong Kong, with Beijing now choosing the candidates in elections there, what's the point of this now? All we've achieved is allowing China to play the old "foreign interference" card and will now use its state controlled media to whip-up anti-British feeling. It's time to draw a line under any pretense to an ethical foreign policy and begin a new age of pragmatism - let's work with regimes we don't particularly like e.g. China in exchange for their help combating Islamic extremism and undermining the Russian regime (like we did in the cold war).

 

[Judgeneo]

I was going to make a thread on this later, glad someone did.

We're not going to get any help from China against Isis and certainly not against Russia.

Russia is the only other major communist country, so they will be unwilling to help us in Ukraine from that some. They also won't want to draw attention to the injustice of land grabs, seeing as they are in control of disputed territories already and seem determined to expand into the islands to the east. It is a very different situation for China and Russia then the cold war was.

We also won't get any help against Isis, as they deal with the problem of Islamic extremism in a very different way to the west. They have the big problem of extremism in Xinjiang province, and are frequently the subject of terrorist attacks. They respond by simply crushing the province, and blocking it from the economic investment the rest of the country has seen. They then justify this to the Muslim world by forming a tight friendship with Pakistan - which incidentally, they openly refer to as China's Israel - so they see no need to help us fight Isis.
This is all ignoring their own investments in the gulf, which are often contrary to our own.

The point you raise about being seen as a foreign interfering power is a prudent one though. My gf is currently in Beijing, and they are blaming the protests in Hong Kong (and perhaps Macau) on UK spies. Seriously...

Staying out of it all is a tempting proposition, but I can't see China helping us on the other big foreign policy. And the people of Hong Kong have no one else to turn to in their quest for diplomacy, and if we DMT do so when Beijing seems to have so fragrantly broken our international agreements with them, when will we ever do so.

We also need to stand up for the large British business interests in Hong Kong, which are all much better served with minimal interference from the central government.

 

[arknor]

weren't our politicians bending over begging for Chinese investment in the UK not so long ago?

 

[scorza]

I was going to make a thread on this later, glad someone did.

We're not going to get any help from China against Isis and certainly not against Russia.

Russia is the only other major communist country, so they will be unwilling to help us in Ukraine from that some. They also won't want to draw attention to the injustice of land grabs, seeing as they are in control of disputed territories already and seem determined to expand into the islands to the east. It is a very different situation for China and Russia then the cold war was.

Agree that Ukraine will be resolved without any input from China. However I don't believe that the relationship between China and Russia is anything like as rosy as you might think. The Chinese have long memories and still refer to the time that parts of Siberia belonged to China. With European demand for Russian gas diminishing Putin is banking on selling to China to prop up the Russian economy, but having one, vital customer is a strategy fraught with risk. I suggest that relationship will come under pressure in time.

We also won't get any help against Isis, as they deal with the problem of Islamic extremism in a very different way to the west. They have the big problem of extremism in Xinjiang province, and are frequently the subject of terrorist attacks. They respond by simply crushing the province, and blocking it from the economic investment the rest of the country has seen. They then justify this to the Muslim world by forming a tight friendship with Pakistan - which incidentally, they openly refer to as China's Israel - so they see no need to help us fight Isis.
This is all ignoring their own investments in the gulf, which are often contrary to our own.

Also agree that we won't get any help with ISIS from China, however China is very active in Africa as are other Islamic extremist organisations such as Boko Haram and Al-Shebab. At the moment, perhaps prudently, these Islamic extremist groups seem to be afraid of attacking Chinese interests there, but again that is something that could change.

Interesting point about the Sino-Pak relationship, I didn't know that. I don't really see the relevance to Israel though? In any case, I expect Pakistan to implode in the next few years.

We also need to stand up for the large British business interests in Hong Kong, which are all much better served with minimal interference from the central government.

Agreed. I think the general point I was making is that it's in our long term interests to have a reasonable relationship with the Chinese. We're never going to be as close with them as we are with the USA, but perhaps over time we can form a mutually beneficial relationship.

 

[Orionaut]

The Chinese have long memories and still refer to the time that parts of Siberia belonged to China.

A Long time a go I said that, were ladbrooks willing to take such a bet, I would be tempted to put a punt on a War between China and Russia over the possession of Siberia in the not too distant future!

What with Russia doing its best Nazi Germany impersonation

It isn't Russia that is doing the "NAZi Germany" impersonation! It is China!

(Look beneath the obvious Politics of "Communisim" and look at the actual economic/industrial strategy)

 

[GAC]

so british spys are involved and getting the hong kong people upset.

has nothing to do with china enforcing communist party rule over them even though hong kong is supposed to have some form of self rule.

next up swamp gas and its effects on the price of oil and how irelands to blame!

 

[Judgeneo]

Agree that Ukraine will be resolved without any input from China. However I don't believe that the relationship between China and Russia is anything like as rosy as you might think. The Chinese have long memories and still refer to the time that parts of Siberia belonged to China. With European demand for Russian gas diminishing Putin is banking on selling to China to prop up the Russian economy, but having one, vital customer is a strategy fraught with risk. I suggest that relationship will come under pressure in time.

Oh I agree that its not a rosy relationship, but on Ukraine in particular China will stand with Russia, because its plans for the south china sea and even Taiwan would/could be considered annexation by the west, and it doesn't want to have been seen as previously against it.

Also agree that we won't get any help with ISIS from China, however China is very active in Africa as are other Islamic extremist organisations such as Boko Haram and Al-Shebab. At the moment, perhaps prudently, these Islamic extremist groups seem to be afraid of attacking Chinese interests there, but again that is something that could change.

I didn't realise that Chinese interests were seemingly safe from the military action, I'll have to look that up.

Interesting point about the Sino-Pak relationship, I didn't know that. I don't really see the relevance to Israel though? In any case, I expect Pakistan to implode in the next few years.

China supports Pakistan because it wants them to act as a counterbalance to Indian interests in the area, not because it agrees with the policies of Pakistan. Long term, India will be a major global power, and when the population crisis that China has built with their one-child policy finally hits, India will be seen as the major Asian power. A strong pro-China Pakistan is aimed at stopping this.
This is much the same as Americas Interest in Israel, they are more interested in using Israel to have a foothold in the region in order to influence the other nations, than they are concerned with the will of the Israeli peoples.

Agreed. I think the general point I was making is that it's in our long term interests to have a reasonable relationship with the Chinese. We're never going to be as close with them as we are with the USA, but perhaps over time we can form a mutually beneficial relationship.

I agree completely that we need a mutually beneficial relationship with China. This however is much more complicated than it seems on the surface.

 

[Judgeneo]

A Long time a go I said that, were ladbrooks willing to take such a bet, I would be tempted to put a punt on a War between China and Russia over the possession of Siberia in the not too distant future!



It isn't Russia that is doing the "NAZi Germany" impersonation! It is China!

(Look beneath the obvious Politics of "Communisim" and look at the actual economic/industrial strategy)

The thing with Chinese history is, well theres a lot of it. They've been friendly and enemies with most nations of the earth. In the UK they can point of times of prosperous trade between our nations when they want to be friendly, or they can point to when we destroyed their most precious historical site because they wanted to stop us addicting them all to heroin....

Depending on the mood at the time, China can point to pro-siberia or anti-siberia points in its history to justify its actions to its people.

 

[CorrectHorseBattery]

I always thought Hong Kong was far more democratic than the rest of China. Is that not the case (anymore)?

 

[MickeyFinns]

A Long time a go I said that, were ladbrooks willing to take such a bet, I would be tempted to put a punt on a War between China and Russia over the possession of Siberia in the not too distant future!

Off topic but to further that point Russia made a statement awhile ago that in the case of this happening the ground forces would just fallback and fortify the Ural mountains. It'd be a pretty easy grab if nuclear weapons weren't a factor.

 

[MickeyFinns]

I always thought Hong Kong was far more democratic than the rest of China. Is that not the case (anymore)?

It's slowly changing. China promised not to make drastic changes to HK for 50 years candidate selections is the first step towards a puppet government.

I'm in Hong Kong at the moment and the people I'm staying with have been saying how a lot HK'ers that can afford to are putting together plans for emigrating.

 

[CorrectHorseBattery]

What I'm a bit confused about is why the Chinese Government think that Hong Kong, after being very recently democratic, "free" country, will just allow themselves to become the opposite?

Like you say, if people know they can emigrate to get to places which will be, arguably a lot "better" than China, the Chinese plan isn't going to succeed?

 

[dowie]

China can jog on tbh... they agreed to terms of the handover and now they're protesting that the UK is still keeping an eye on things as it said it would...

 

[Raymond Lin]

It's slowly changing. China promised not to make drastic changes to HK for 50 years candidate selections is the first step towards a puppet government.

I'm in Hong Kong at the moment and the people I'm staying with have been saying how a lot HK'ers that can afford to are putting together plans for emigrating.

They said that before 1997, that's why I'm here.

Sad as the situation is, it's not really surprising, politicians (especially the Chinese) not sticking to promises they made that wasn't beneficial to them?

 

[dowie]

The point you raise about being seen as a foreign interfering power is a prudent one though. My gf is currently in Beijing, and they are blaming the protests in Hong Kong (and perhaps Macau) on UK spies. Seriously...

not surprising - people complain about the press over here - 'BBC Bias' etc.. its a lot better than pretty much the rest of the world...

Some Iraqis believed that mossad was working with coalition forces in Iraq, that US and UK troops were wearing x-ray sunglasses to perv at local women through their clothing and that honey badgers spotted in the desert were actually monstrous creatures released by UK troops to terrorise the local population.

 

[Judgeneo]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-27/riot-not-ferguson-it-hong-kong


50,000 take to the street in protest against Beijing, whilst central police train for quelling them.

 

[thep02]

Russia is far from communist and the Chinese will never forgive us for the opium wars or the fact that Hong Kong was ever ceded to us in the first place.

 

[Feef]

I have a friend in HK who works as a photographer for the South China Morning Post, following his Facebook updates has been interesting. Seems the different protest movements are causing some problems amongst themselves, despite ultimately having the same goal.

I'm a little disappointed that people here aren't more engaged with this, given that the ultimate issue concerns Chinese influence in a society that's working quite nicely as it is, thanks very much. Taiwanese protesters were getting upset that the rest of the world wasn't paying any attention to their sunflower movement earlier this year, seems unfair to expect that if they don't show any concern about the HK situation.

 

[SpeedFreak]

Ultimately this is a case of the gradual removal of the right to self-determination that all those living in HK have always known. There is a recognised jealousy on the mainland of those in HK and these changes are to quiet that.

Unfortunately other than bluster, there is nothing the rest of the world can or will do to prevent the revokement of the rights that HK residents currently enjoy.

 

[Meridian]

Ultimately this is a case of the gradual removal of the right to self-determination that all those living in HK have always known. There is a recognised jealousy on the mainland of those in HK and these changes are to quiet that.

Unfortunately other than bluster, there is nothing the rest of the world can or will do to prevent the revokement of the rights that HK residents currently enjoy.

This. Britain seized the colony by force in the first place, and now the rightful owners have it back. Everyone understood that this was going to happen, and stuff spouted by Chris Patten when Britain exited was never anything other than window-dressing. Unless you plan a war with China, what exactly is Britain supposed to do? Embargo? Write sniffy letters to The Times? China has all the power here, and everyone knows it.