I can't stand GW2 (too many gimmicks for my taste) :S but sunk quite a bit of time into GW1 which was pretty good, the only problem with GW1 was that on the higher end content you pretty much needed to play with close friends as unless your char was "55hp monk" or "barrager" built no one would want you on the team :S
The rotten legacy of the AAA MMO
- Thread starter Zethor
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I can't stand GW2 (too many gimmicks for my taste) :S but sunk quite a bit of time into GW1 which was pretty good, the only problem with GW1 was that on the higher end content you pretty much needed to play with close friends as unless your char was "55hp monk" or "barrager" built no one would want you on the team :S
The combat model is what keeps me interested in GW2 - fun, fluid and active.
Funnily enough I also enjoy the living story (mainly because of a certain character and voice actor) and the environment design is so ridiculously good you can play the game as if touring an art gallery - staring at the set pieces.
But the things available to do in the game are stupid and gimmicky as you say - stupid checklist "achievement" system, incredibly boring pve content, underdeveloped wvw and not enough variety in pvp.
The base mechanics of the game are decent but the folks in charge at Anet continue to dig the grave for this game - such a waste of potential.
Soldato
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misschief, I remember you from the coh forums.
I loved that game it only went sour for me when they brought in crafting/materials it ruined what was a great community.
Since then I have tried DC online and the other one (can't remember the name) but nothing comes close.
I loved that game it only went sour for me when they brought in crafting/materials it ruined what was a great community.
Since then I have tried DC online and the other one (can't remember the name) but nothing comes close.
Aww thanks. I was pretty active on the euro forums but when we got merged into the US forums everyone kind of got lost in the noise which was sad. Loved the game though although I didn't play as regularly when it got closed as I did earlier. For a while there it was a game I played every night for years. I didn't much like the fracturing of the game into those that paid and got the fancy content and those that didn't and missed out though. Server populations were starting to drop at that time and it didn't help at all.
Wildstar hasn't done too well because of multiple reasons.
1. They catered to the minority crowd who screamed for Vanilla WoW and TBC days, with attunements and 40man raids. Then when they got that, they realised they didn't want it after all. The same happened with SWTOR, the minority screamed for no LFG and 3 months after launch, they add LFG due to community pressure. Generally, the player base have no idea what they want in a game.
2. The community cried for more servers and they opened more and paid the price.
3. They completely underestimated the importance of the casual MMO player. Appealing to a niche is great, but forgetting about a large portion of the MMO player base is stupid.
4. The community don't understand the MMO cycle and the general Psychology of a MMO player. The average player is coming from a game to try the new game, they compare the new game to their current game and realise its either better or vastly different that its off-putting. Wildstar for most people i feel was vastly different in that it was harder then most MMO's, the combat was different and the 20/40man raiding coupled with the attunement process and brutal dungeons.
5. They tried to take on WoW and from experience if you do this, you loose and they have lost.
There are other reasons, like bugs, but for the most part the above reasons are what i've found from speaking to a lot of the players i interact with.
If the above points where not there or less dominant, i would suspect the game would be doing vastly better.
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Dude, isn't she 13?
rule34
WoW came along at exactly the right time, with the planets aligned and the sun shining. But that boat has sailed and you will never have another big MMO. The marketplace is so fractured into multiple different niches and sub genres now, there is literally a MMO for nearly everyone.
Blizzard won't make the next big MMO, because they'll never have the right time like before and if it flops, it'll flop so hard that it will destroy the company.
One thing I really miss from that game was the original implementation of the task forces (when Citadel was Bastion) and you really had to stick with it for 4+ hours of a somewhat engaging story line arc with a bunch of other players in a moderately challenging experience, that and things like the implementations of EBs were some of the things that showed the original devs "got it" that has sadly been missing from most games since.
I don't think we should rule out a succesful MMO with a wide appeal, just look at Minecraft and its dozens of millions of sold copies. I just think the formula can't be anything even remotely similar to that of WoW.
I agree that Blizzard won't make it, they started something with Titan but they were smart enough to realise they were on the wrong path as it was probably too similar to WoW. Even Diablo III was in ways similar to WoW on realese, it needed two more years of development and an expansion to "fix" it and give it a proper identity (as a standalone not tied to the Diablo franchise, Diablo III would have been a huge flop).
Dude, isn't she 13?
Not like that! Every line of dialogue is pure comedy and genius, and the VA does a fantastic job at conveying it! 
Just checking - this is Taimi we're talking about, right? Almost Bioware level of quality.
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And the servers are a barren wasteland with less than 1/10th the peak populations
I thought reakktor basically abandoned it, and it's just a load of the devs/gms keeping it running now?
And the servers are a barren wasteland with less than 1/10th the peak populations
I thought reakktor basically abandoned it, and it's just a load of the devs/gms keeping it running now?
Yes, but nukkdogg has been registered by the ReaKKtor CEO and it sounds like they are in a development cycle at the moment. The community run patches however are working well, and currently textures are being updated to run at a much higher resolution. The balancing project is going well, and it looks like the patch will be out fairly soon.
If you like PvP and you like a more first person style combat then I'd truly suggest giving Neocron a go - although don't spend too long in the boring sewers - get out into the world to experience it.
Sounds good, I played for about 2 years until bdoy/nc2 was released and I (along with everyone else) saw 2 years of hard work wiped out. Kinda lost interest/motivation after that...
I tried it again a few months ago, but that special little spark wasn't there anymore
Maybe a new release/lease of life is just what it needs =)
I tried it again a few months ago, but that special little spark wasn't there anymore
Maybe a new release/lease of life is just what it needs =)
Sounds good, I played for about 2 years until bdoy/nc2 was released and I (along with everyone else) saw 2 years of hard work wiped out. Kinda lost interest/motivation after that...
I tried it again a few months ago, but that special little spark wasn't there anymore
Maybe a new release/lease of life is just what it needs =)
Shame that spark had gone, most people I know have always called it the neocrack since it always holds you, and you always fall back into it! BDOY was the end of the glory days to be honest, I was sad to lose all my original characters.
I gave up on mmo's when it became painfully obvious there was a fixation by players and publishers alike on trying to bypass 80% of the content, story, exploration and adventure as quickly as possible in a race to get to max level and then do the same tedious rinse and repeat content over and over again following a set formula (aka raid). MMOs may as well have a tutorial followed by a "/level 50" command, save themselves a lot of time developing content people ignore whilst looking for the closest "!" and have done.
Bah humbug...
MMOs may as well have a tutorial followed by a "/level 50" command, save themselves a lot of time developing content people ignore whilst looking for the closest "!" and have done.Bah humbug...
The issue I have is with levels. As soon as there are levels in the game then it all becomes a race to see who can reach the top first - and then complain that there is no high-level content.
Now add in just how easy it is to reach those high levels - you can begin most games these days and if you go "all in" you'll be maximum within a week, even modest playing and you'll be there in 2-3.
No real challenge.
I was introduced to MMO's with Ultima Online - initially playing on the US servers as there weren't any in the UK. It took literally months to achieve the 7x GM "maximum" with regards skills. When you reached those skill levels you actually had something to be proud of.
The game also promoted risk v reward. You venture out to where all the "cool stuff" and the best loot can be found and there was a chance somebody might kill you. When you died, you could lose everything you were carrying.
I've said it in the past, but the reason everything has been made simple is to make the "console generation" happy. Console players want everything now, they don't want to have to wait. The games have been dumbed down, made easier and there is a "you've won the game" moment - all things that should not be in an MMO.
Archage "UO reborn" - then why are there levels? The only thing on the horizon for me is "Shroud of the Avatar" being developed by Richard "Lord British" Garriot". This will truly go back to the roots, and there will be no levels! I wish some of the big producers would take that chance, make a game with no levels and make skill gain based on you actually using the skill you wish to improve in more and more difficult situations.
But no, levels and "XP" means you can swing a sword over and over again and then once you level, increase your skill in cooking.
Now add in just how easy it is to reach those high levels - you can begin most games these days and if you go "all in" you'll be maximum within a week, even modest playing and you'll be there in 2-3.
No real challenge.
I was introduced to MMO's with Ultima Online - initially playing on the US servers as there weren't any in the UK. It took literally months to achieve the 7x GM "maximum" with regards skills. When you reached those skill levels you actually had something to be proud of.
The game also promoted risk v reward. You venture out to where all the "cool stuff" and the best loot can be found and there was a chance somebody might kill you. When you died, you could lose everything you were carrying.
I've said it in the past, but the reason everything has been made simple is to make the "console generation" happy. Console players want everything now, they don't want to have to wait. The games have been dumbed down, made easier and there is a "you've won the game" moment - all things that should not be in an MMO.
Archage "UO reborn" - then why are there levels? The only thing on the horizon for me is "Shroud of the Avatar" being developed by Richard "Lord British" Garriot". This will truly go back to the roots, and there will be no levels! I wish some of the big producers would take that chance, make a game with no levels and make skill gain based on you actually using the skill you wish to improve in more and more difficult situations.
But no, levels and "XP" means you can swing a sword over and over again and then once you level, increase your skill in cooking.
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Not to sound like a broken record but that was another thing that was great about COH - by power levelling you missed out a ton of content which they implemented various mechanics so you could go back and do it again and/or enough diverse story arcs you could start a new character, they also implemented a different type of character (warshade/peacebringers) that you could unlock later which was an alien/host hybrid that let you play the game in a different way. Then there was also the side kick system which meant that you could power level in an interesting fashion and/or help or be helped out along the way in doing it and in doing so get a feel for some of the additional content that might interest you again later.
Obviously eventually you'd run out of content but the impact of power levelling was much reduced.
CoH was great because the content getting to 50 was actually really good. They made the journey the best part for a long time. You could have got to 50 5 times and still missed out on some story arcs or not completed a zone fully. They were, admittedly a little late in the 50+ content but it was getting there that was fun unlike WoW where it was a race to 50/60/70 ASAP. When I started playing everyone was obsessed with getting max level minimum time whereas I'd just started so was running about asking questions etc. people were generally rude, obnoxious or just plain ignored you.
Soldato
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I remember MissChief from CoH. I think we were actually friends in-game (I think my main account was called "Highguard" and my second "GoogalyMoogaly").
I loved that game and sank so many hours into it for so many years. I didn't play WoW BECAUSE of CoH. I was just too involved in the game by the time WoW came out to get into WoW (2 weeks after). In WoW I logged in ran around doing quest while other people were in the area. In CoH you log in and within a few minutes usually had a (almost) full team doing instanced missions.
The levelling system was simple but with some depth to it. Pick a skill or add slots to a skill enabling the addition of enhancements to improve aspects of the skill (depending on your level).
Task Forces were also great.
Most of my friends played WoW with other people they already knew. I played CoH and made new friends, a number of which I still keep in contact with. The social aspect and community of that game was spot on in my opinion and that can do so much for a game like an MMO.
City of Villains, while not bad split the population, which in my opinion was the start of the downfall. Then as they started applying skill pools to every feasible class it just got a bit silly. When it went F2P and they added new sets you could buy, it ruined it for me.
The way they redeveloped and added new content was great though.
I liked the game so much I had 2 subs!
After that I played SW:ToR.
I quite enjoyed it but for me it lacked the social aspect. The limited team sizes didn't help and no way around the level differences made PUGs awkward. I liked the game though. Even quite liked the combat. But it just didn't hold my attention for much more than a year or so. I think the content was well done, but to to that it didn't have a lot of it.
I then went on to GW2.
It was OK, but I think it peaked to early. The first 30-40 levels aren't bad but then the next 40 or 50 were just dull grinds.
The skill were pretty meh. Having skills based on weapons was a nice touch but there's only 5 and often at least one of those is very situational. The other 4 weren't great either, often having pretty long recharges meaning they weren't part of an attack chain. It was done best on the Thief where the middle skill was unique based on the combination of right and left hand weapons. More classes should have had this.
Combat just felt mind-numbingly repetitive, even for a MMO. Personal stories were done well, but the missions were too far between, level-wise. The area missions were dull grindy kill X number of enemy Y missions. I hated those in CoH and SW:ToR and that's pretty much all GW2 had. They made a big thing about the mission system being different with no central hub. But you still had to go to the areas so it really saved you very little. CoH introduced a system where you could phone your contact to avoid travelling to them, this served the purpose just as well.
The events that happen that you can just join in were ok, but generally needed other players, too few and it wasn't fun, too many and it wasn't fun.
The system where you don't kill steal was nice but also annoyed me as sometimes I like to challenge myself to see if I can take out this enemy or that one solo. In most MMOs I've played people will respect that for the most part and leave you to it. In GW2 people would just run up and join in. I completed some skill points by just being in the area (pretty much), that no challenge or fun!
But for me the big disappointment was the grouping mechanic. Joining a team seemed to offer nothing more than a common chat channel. In most MMOs if you in a team you get a share of XP for being in range of the team. In GW2 you have to hit the enemies. If you're a melee character with high single target damage with a team of AoEers then it can be difficult to hit every enemy to get your share. Also means it hard to concentrate on non-combat roles like healing as you have to be hitting too. Yeah it means people can't leach, but they can be kicked if it's felt they're not pulling their weight the game doesn't need to force it. Because of this I never wanted to team in the game, which ruins an MMO for me.
I think wanting to play in a team and having a good community is what makes an MMO work. If you want to play solo then I think it's doing something wrong. Not as wrong as if you don't want to play at all, but...
I loved that game and sank so many hours into it for so many years. I didn't play WoW BECAUSE of CoH. I was just too involved in the game by the time WoW came out to get into WoW (2 weeks after). In WoW I logged in ran around doing quest while other people were in the area. In CoH you log in and within a few minutes usually had a (almost) full team doing instanced missions.
The levelling system was simple but with some depth to it. Pick a skill or add slots to a skill enabling the addition of enhancements to improve aspects of the skill (depending on your level).
Task Forces were also great.
Most of my friends played WoW with other people they already knew. I played CoH and made new friends, a number of which I still keep in contact with. The social aspect and community of that game was spot on in my opinion and that can do so much for a game like an MMO.
City of Villains, while not bad split the population, which in my opinion was the start of the downfall. Then as they started applying skill pools to every feasible class it just got a bit silly. When it went F2P and they added new sets you could buy, it ruined it for me.
The way they redeveloped and added new content was great though.
I liked the game so much I had 2 subs!
After that I played SW:ToR.
I quite enjoyed it but for me it lacked the social aspect. The limited team sizes didn't help and no way around the level differences made PUGs awkward. I liked the game though. Even quite liked the combat. But it just didn't hold my attention for much more than a year or so. I think the content was well done, but to to that it didn't have a lot of it.
I then went on to GW2.
It was OK, but I think it peaked to early. The first 30-40 levels aren't bad but then the next 40 or 50 were just dull grinds.
The skill were pretty meh. Having skills based on weapons was a nice touch but there's only 5 and often at least one of those is very situational. The other 4 weren't great either, often having pretty long recharges meaning they weren't part of an attack chain. It was done best on the Thief where the middle skill was unique based on the combination of right and left hand weapons. More classes should have had this.
Combat just felt mind-numbingly repetitive, even for a MMO. Personal stories were done well, but the missions were too far between, level-wise. The area missions were dull grindy kill X number of enemy Y missions. I hated those in CoH and SW:ToR and that's pretty much all GW2 had. They made a big thing about the mission system being different with no central hub. But you still had to go to the areas so it really saved you very little. CoH introduced a system where you could phone your contact to avoid travelling to them, this served the purpose just as well.
The events that happen that you can just join in were ok, but generally needed other players, too few and it wasn't fun, too many and it wasn't fun.
The system where you don't kill steal was nice but also annoyed me as sometimes I like to challenge myself to see if I can take out this enemy or that one solo. In most MMOs I've played people will respect that for the most part and leave you to it. In GW2 people would just run up and join in. I completed some skill points by just being in the area (pretty much), that no challenge or fun!
But for me the big disappointment was the grouping mechanic. Joining a team seemed to offer nothing more than a common chat channel. In most MMOs if you in a team you get a share of XP for being in range of the team. In GW2 you have to hit the enemies. If you're a melee character with high single target damage with a team of AoEers then it can be difficult to hit every enemy to get your share. Also means it hard to concentrate on non-combat roles like healing as you have to be hitting too. Yeah it means people can't leach, but they can be kicked if it's felt they're not pulling their weight the game doesn't need to force it. Because of this I never wanted to team in the game, which ruins an MMO for me.
I think wanting to play in a team and having a good community is what makes an MMO work. If you want to play solo then I think it's doing something wrong. Not as wrong as if you don't want to play at all, but...