Were you a student that fell for Nick's charm and promises?
Don't worry, every student I know did to..
Will UKIP win its first seat in parliament tonight?
- Thread starter Danthus
- Start date
Were you a student that fell for Nick's charm and promises?
Don't worry, every student I know did to..
thats what i worry about for here as its old labour stomping ground and a lot of people see the party rather than the mp and what they have done locally.
Exactly. The lib dems would have done better to ditch the deal with the tories when it was clear they were being ignored. Called for a general election etc... they would have gained respect for sticking to their morals, now they have no credibility and are seen as sell outs to get their noses in the gravy train!
Permabanned
- Joined
- 28 Dec 2009
- Posts
- 13,052
- Location
- london
Labour is the most anti-intellectual bunch out there as it does not fit in with their fake ideology of being for the working class. Being against rich and successful people and white english men who are not government employees...is what labour is all about. Unless you are a women, work for government or are a minority labour is not interested. Ask elmarko about it.
Nice figures but they don't say much without a comparison, do they? Can you find an example that includes a comparison between immigrant contribution and cost?
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/26/nhs-foreign-nationals-immigration-health-service
We've already established immgirants contribute more to the economy than they take out and they represent a large part of the NHS workforce (14% of qualified clinical staff, 26% of the doctors). It looks to me that an existing NHS pressure would be higher without them.
As for education, I see it first hand as I work in education. Migrants arriving with 5+ kids (that's just one family, there were 5-10 families looking for 34 childrens school primary places in Sept 14 this year alone in the one school I am aware of....IN JUST ONE SINGLE SCHOOL) and they all have to be schooled. Schools at breaking point due to having to divert cash from teaching to interpreters/classroom assistants for the new pupils. Laying off staff to save money that then has to be spent on interpreters. Teachers having to do more 1 to 1 coaching with the migrant pupils to try and help them and the other pupils in the class don't get as much quality teaching time (only so many hours in a school day)...but hey...don't let actual real life experiences get in the way of an academic paper
Out of curiousity, what kind of work do you do? I would expect someone who works in education to understand the difference between statistical evidence which is used in almost any field, from Quantum Physics to car safety rules, and anecdotal evidence, which you seem to imply is more relevant.
Last edited:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/22/temporary-migrants-nhs-cost-study
http://news.sky.com/story/1188138/maternity-tourists-using-nhs-for-free-care
at least £2 Billion used by NHS on treating NHS tourists.
As for education, I see it first hand as I work in education. Migrants arriving with 5+ kids (that's just one family, there were 5-10 families looking for 34 childrens school primary places in Sept 14 this year alone in the one school I am aware of....IN JUST ONE SINGLE SCHOOL) and they all have to be schooled. Schools at breaking point due to having to divert cash from teaching to interpreters/classroom assistants for the new pupils. Laying off staff to save money that then has to be spent on interpreters. Teachers having to do more 1 to 1 coaching with the migrant pupils to try and help them and the other pupils in the class don't get as much quality teaching time (only so many hours in a school day)...but hey...don't let actual real life experiences get in the way of an academic paper
It's all very well highlighting costs, but we're not a poor country so why do you want us to act like one?
The economy is growing faster than the rest of the developed world bar USA, and yet we're still penny pinching about education and health? It's ********.
If we want to continue being one of the richest nations, investment in future is key. Education is struggling because we don't prioritise it enough. HEalthcare costs are rising worldwide due to increasing costs of treatments. It's not because of immigrants. We need to invest to match.
Closing our border and telling everyone we can't afford it... that's not likely to inspire the confidence of business to invest here is it?
Man of Honour
- Joined
- 27 Sep 2004
- Posts
- 25,821
- Location
- Glasgow
Except that the Conservative tally in Clacton was almost certainly significantly diminished by the fact that their previous candidate who was successfully elected then switched parties. If (and it could be a big if) the people of Clacton really did vote for the man rather than the party then the majority of the UKIP voters there may have been just as happy to vote Conservative.
It's certainly worth noting but how significant it is might be better left aside for the moment for further reflection.
ok give me "proof" on the education slant pleaseI work in it and can give you countless real life aspects that some academic study can "disprove" but in reality, it's happening, it's real and people are trying to say it's not a problem when it really really is.
The problem with examples such as this is that they might be localised, that doesn't mean they don't constitute an issue that is important and could/should be addressed but it also doesn't constitute proof that the issues you find yourself facing are ones that are widespread across the country.
The casual dismissal of studies into topics such as this is also a bit worrying as it speaks to a lack of trust in the findings of such organisations and perhaps even into the integrity of the organisations themselves.
I agree people should be critical of them, but we don't need further support to the kind of anti-intellectual evidence ignoring kind of attitude we see in the right in the USA & a with a number over here (the use of the term egghead was as a deliberate poke at Bush specifically).
It all comes down to reality, what will actually work - what social policies are best supported by all the available evidence.
I've yet to see a shed of evidence that UKIPs policies pass these basic tests (making them just as bad as the others already) - not to mention of the policies they actually laid out, a huge number of them are in direct conflict with the evidence (on the subject of crime & punishment for example). What we need is a rational look at the issues our nation faces, then a leader willing to put into place solutions for those without either ignoring the evidence or trampling on the rights of the population.
UKIP are not appealing to reason, neither are they appealing to the evidence either - it's political popularism at it's worst, picking the top 10 commonly held misconceptions regarding social policy in the UK & building a manifesto aimed at resolving these exaggerated & inflated problems.
While the whole time pushing for changes which would vastly reduce the standard of living for a majority of the population & further empower big business.
Soldato
- Joined
- 28 Nov 2004
- Posts
- 16,024
- Location
- 9th Inner Circle
Pressure, not unsustainable pressure. But so has the growth of our own indigenous people, especially with an ageing population.
No-one cares about 'Policies' they just want to spank Cameron, voting for UKIP spanks Cameron and Milliband so it's a win-win. People are tired of the same old, same old.
It's a good thing the Electorate have stirred even if it's for a **** party, at least they have stirred and shown 'We' want change. At the end of the day can UKIP (or any other 'New' Elected Govt. for that matter) really do any worse than the Conservatives or Labour? No.
It's a good thing the Electorate have stirred even if it's for a **** party, at least they have stirred and shown 'We' want change. At the end of the day can UKIP (or any other 'New' Elected Govt. for that matter) really do any worse than the Conservatives or Labour? No.
Of course problems like this will usually be localised. The problem is that when parties and politcians simply dismiss these sort of problems as racism the local people who SEE it daily get annoyed and upset at being called lairs and will vote accordingly. I used to work in primary schools doing IT support and i saw with my own eyes that some schools had real problems dealing with the influx of immigrants and their children, while other schools had only a small amount to deal with.
On these forums you will find that any stories reporting problems with localised immigration are immediately discounted, the poster accused of being racist and so on and then others saying that it is just made up. You can drive 30miles and be worlds apart when it comes to immigration problems.
If you live in a nice leafy suburb with practicially zero immigration issues it is easy to dismiss it all and say "well i dont see a problem".... conversely if you live in an inner city area with bad racial tensions you get angry at anyone who says it must be YOU causing the problem because "mr Patel down the road from me is dead nice!"
I got abuse and worse in a thread for recounting my experiance when i lived in manchester and rochdale. I was lambasted and accused of being "to blame" or just accused of making it up. This is the sort of attitude that turns voters to goto patries like UkIP, they atleast seem to listen to the issues. Of course no one has the answer, and while both sides of the coin argue the problems get worse in the effected and areas and tensions grow.
Last edited:
Soldato
- Joined
- 25 Sep 2009
- Posts
- 10,226
- Location
- Billericay, UK
I've taken this from the BBC and I was rather surprised it.
While there's a lot of talk of how much damage UKIP could do to the votes of the Conservative and Labour just look at where UKIP are placing in the south west which is traditionally a Lib Dem strong hold!
Farage claimed the 2020 election would be the one where UKIP makes inroads into Parliament but looking at this I suspect they could have double digit MP's in 2015.
While there's a lot of talk of how much damage UKIP could do to the votes of the Conservative and Labour just look at where UKIP are placing in the south west which is traditionally a Lib Dem strong hold!
Farage claimed the 2020 election would be the one where UKIP makes inroads into Parliament but looking at this I suspect they could have double digit MP's in 2015.
This is the fact of the matter. Most people in the area like Carswell and have simply voted for him rather than for the policies that UKIP stand for.
The result was a foregone conclusion, on a daily basis I walk around a large area of Frinton-on-Sea which comes under Clacton and I saw so many UKIP posters in houses that I'm sure would have voted Conservative before. There were hardly any for the other parties.
Hopefully it's just a temporary blip and things will be back to normal in May.
To be fair, the constituencies in which UKIP are polling well in the South West aren't Lib Dem constituencies, to my knowledge. I live in one of the coloured areas in the south-west on that map - it's a tory/labour swing seat, Lib-Dems don't get a look in, sadly.
E:
I take it back, a few of those in Cornwall and somerset are Lib dem seats.
Last edited:
Associate
- Joined
- 1 Mar 2004
- Posts
- 2,014
- Location
- Warwickshire
The Heywood result is the biggest surprise and an excellent result for UKIP - the phrase 'Vote Conservative, get Labour' comes to mind. I just hope they can keep up the momentum.
Soldato
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2004
- Posts
- 14,315
- Location
- Peoples Republic of Histonia, Cambridge
The real issue isn't weather immigration is a problem or not, it’s weather it's perceived to be a problem. People are all free to vote for the party of their choosing, and it's not against the law to have xenophobic thoughts or disposition.
There now seem to be a common cause between two broad social classes. The affluent, rural middle class tory voter who don't want poor people coming to this country wherever they are from, and urban working classes who don't want additional completion for jobs, welfare and public services. This group now forms a sizable minority of people in the UK.
The 3 main parties seem to be paralyzed by the issue. They seem incapable of even acknowledging that it's even a legitimate concern. The stock response from a [shadow] minister when asked is to say "we're going to focus on the matter that are important to people" i.e. the economy, NHS etc.
Clearly immigration is an important issue, because UKIP wouldn't exist otherwise. Belittling people by telling them their fears are unfounded seems like a bad strategy imo.
The danger is, UKIP, superficially seems to be offering a solution to this problem right now. They have also successfully managed to make anti-immigration politics electorally acceptable again. It may be uncomfortable for some, but there are many intolerant people in the UK and there always have been. UKIP have just encouraged them out the closet.
It's a shame. I don't find immigration levels unacceptable, and we benefit a great deal from our integration with the EU.
But then I live in an area which although has relatively high levels of "immigrants", they are generally wealthy immigrates who contribute a substantial amount to the local area.
It's true that if we could bring the same prosperity to other areas of the UK people’s attitude to immigration would soften. But successive government have failed to regenerate many town and city’s an I'm not surprised frustrations can manifests themselves in this way.
An ecomony built on rising house prices, QE and speculation....what can go wrong? We aren't "growing" per se the economy...we are kicking the can further down the road to deal with later.
Nail on the head there....good post.
Exactly. We need to restart our manufacturing output, but that seems like a pipedream now compared to say 40 years ago.
The need to slow down immigration is there but we have such endemic problems all over the economy that it will not make much differance i suspect.
People are living longer and earning less.... what is happening is no suprise.