Thoughts on this tiny kitchen

Russinating · 14 Oct 2014 at 13:18

We're moving into a new place soon and we were originally looking at an extension, but we're also weighing up how to get the most out of the space that's already there. Mainly because it'll save over £12,000 and a lot of building work/faff.

Here's what I've come up with using Ikea's Kitchen Designer.

Storage space actually isn't too bad; the same as our current kitchen which is much bigger. It benefits from two outbuildings which we'll re-roof and will house the washing machine, dryer and a freezer (chest or normal), so the only appliances in the kitchen are the oven and and a shallow fridge.

I know they advise that you should have 1200mm between cabinets, but a lot of kitchens don't (and the existing one there certainly doesn't!) and with one side of 600mm units and one side of 370mm that leaves a gap of 770mm.

The rear door also opens outwards though that needs replacing anyway.

Thoughts?

mattyg · 14 Oct 2014 at 13:26

Whats on the other side of the rear door?
My first thoughts are move the door to the other side or the middle

Moving both doors to the middle would free up another 2 units by the looks of it.

And it really isnt as expensive as it looks

a1ex2001 · 14 Oct 2014 at 13:30

Washing machine and dryer in an out building so in winter if you want to do the washing you have to go outside, no thanks! If your doing this for you to live in long(ish) term or to sell for a profit do the extension or you'll just regret spending money on a new kitchen then ripping it out when you realise you should have done the extension! If it is for rent then you need to go full landlord and just do what ever is cheap and works which looks like what you have designed.

Russinating · 14 Oct 2014 at 13:33

The rear door (bottom in the plan) leads into the stairwell, and that can't be moved because the stairs start going up in-line with the doorframe. The top door leads outside and this can't be moved sideways as the outbuildings back onto the top wall and cover all of it but the door opening.

I have photos at home that I'll upload tonight.

One option is moving the outside door completely, and opening up what is currently a window in the lounge to be a door instead, but that means access to the outbuildings would be worse; plan at the moment, without an extension, is to level and extend the outbuilding roof so there's a cover,

And yes, overall plan is to rent once the place is done.

I thought having washer/dryer outside wasn't too bad? It certainly keeps the noise down.

LiE · 14 Oct 2014 at 13:37

Depends, frozen pipes is a real possibility for the washer.

a1ex2001 · 14 Oct 2014 at 13:52

Russinating said:
The rear door (bottom in the plan) leads into the stairwell, and that can't be moved because the stairs start going up in-line with the doorframe. The top door leads outside and this can't be moved sideways as the outbuildings back onto the top wall and cover all of it but the door opening.

I have photos at home that I'll upload tonight.

One option is moving the outside door completely, and opening up what is currently a window in the lounge to be a door instead, but that means access to the outbuildings would be worse; plan at the moment, without an extension, is to level and extend the outbuilding roof so there's a cover,

And yes, overall plan is to rent once the place is done.

I thought having washer/dryer outside wasn't too bad? It certainly keeps the noise down.

You renting it so stop spending money you haven't made, fit the kitchen you've deigned and put the washer dryer in the out house. insulate the pipes and put the freezer next to it.

Unless you aiming for some super high end trendy tenants who will be paying the rent to match then the bottom line is don't spend it unless you have to focus on profit and let that be your guide. Asses all work based on how long it will take you to see a return on investment.

mattyg · 14 Oct 2014 at 13:54

If your going to rent it out then as above go full landlord. No point in spending 10k just to get another £30 per month rent

I that white appliance on the RHS is the cooker you may need to move it. Dont think you can have a cooker (gas) that close to a window

Russinating · 14 Oct 2014 at 14:01

a1ex2001 said:
You renting it so stop spending money you haven't made, fit the kitchen you've deigned and put the washer dryer in the out house. insulate the pipes and put the freezer next to it.

Unless you aiming for some super high end trendy tenants who will be paying the rent to match then the bottom line is don't spend it unless you have to focus on profit and let that be your guide. Asses all work based on how long it will take you to see a return on investment.

Thanks, that helps make the decision

.

mattyg said:
If your going to rent it out then as above go full landlord. No point in spending 10k just to get another £30 per month rent

I that white appliance on the RHS is the cooker you may need to move it. Dont think you can have a cooker (gas) that close to a window

Yes it's cooker, but electric. I hate electric hobs but it's both for "full landlord" reasons and because the kitchen doesn't currently have a gas supply (though the boiler above in the bathroom is a combi).

Russinating · 14 Oct 2014 at 19:26

Photos as promised, just to help visualize.

mattyg · 14 Oct 2014 at 19:57

Is there another outside access to the left of that last shot. If so I'd brick the rear door.
If not then phone your local howdens up and get them out to plan for you.

Also can you go and take a shot looking in through the window from the outside

Russinating · 14 Oct 2014 at 20:31

mattyg said:
Is there another outside access to the left of that last shot. If so I'd brick the rear door.
If not then phone your local howdens up and get them out to plan for you.

Also can you go and take a shot looking in through the window from the outside

No, no access to the left, just a window, as per below:

Don't own the place yet so can't get a shot looking through the window, any reason? What were you thinking/looking for?

mattyg · 14 Oct 2014 at 23:24

I was just trying to see all the space on that wall.

In all honesty I would just sort it for rental

Russinating · 15 Oct 2014 at 10:32

Gotcha. Yeah, just an empty concrete space really.

Really usefully, we were watching Restoration Man on BBC2 last night and there was an almost identical kitchen. He originally advised an extension but the owner decided not to due to budget, which was useful for us! They also did almost exactly what we're planning which is have full size units one side, shallow units the other. They actually went even further and had shallow wall cabinets as floor units but they had a narrower area to us. Worked really well and gave us some confidence that it can be done well!

commited · 15 Oct 2014 at 13:22

Any thoughts on knocking through a door to the outbuildings to make a utility room, bricking up existing door and using the end door of the outbuilding as entrance to the garden? Shouldn't cost a huge amount and will mean more "useable" space within the house footprint.

If you're going to the hassle of re-roofing the outbuilding, I'd be tempted to integrate it into the kitchen as a full width room, shouldn't cost a huge amount either and would end up with enough area for a kitchen/breakfast room.

Out of interest, do you already own a principle property or are you renting yourselves?

Russinating · 15 Oct 2014 at 13:28

commited said:
Any thoughts on knocking through a door to the outbuildings to make a utility room, bricking up existing door and using the end door of the outbuilding as entrance to the garden? Shouldn't cost a huge amount and will mean more "useable" space within the house footprint.

Yes, considered it, but the outbuildings are exactly that, and aren't insulated or anything at all. Home Buyer's Report even recommended knocking them down and starting again but I don't think they're that bad, brick seems ok just needs a new roof and re-plastering for them to be used for utilities.

commited said:
If you're going to the hassle of re-roofing the outbuilding, I'd be tempted to integrate it into the kitchen as a full width room, shouldn't cost a huge amount either and would end up with enough area for a kitchen/breakfast room.

Trouble is I can do the re-roof myself, as it's just a glorified shed. I'm thinking of a levelling it with a 5 degree pitch, so either remove some bricks from the back and sides or add some to the front and sides. This will then extend out to form a canopy over the kitchen -> outbuilding access path.

I'm trying to avoid any major building work, and like you say if I was to do some I'd just do the full extension for what it's worth.

commited said:
Out of interest, do you already own a principle property or are you renting yourselves?

Currently renting and this is our first buy

. Plan is to do up, move and rent. I work for myself so ideally I'd like property to form part of/if not all of my pension. Plus our actual ideal home is so far away that we're only going to get there by climbing the property ladder faster than normal!

commited · 16 Oct 2014 at 10:43

Russinating said:
Currently renting and this is our first buy . Plan is to do up, move and rent. I work for myself so ideally I'd like property to form part of/if not all of my pension. Plus our actual ideal home is so far away that we're only going to get there by climbing the property ladder faster than normal!

Have you done the sums on this? Unless you're living nearly rent free (or have very low incomes), you are generally better off living in your first residence rather than renting it out. There are several reasons for this, mainly paying tax on the rental income as well as capital gains tax on any property value inflation. Would be interested in seeing your sums if you'd be happy to share them as I spent a lot of time modelling this (for the Irish market) and it didn't make sense.

mattyg · 16 Oct 2014 at 11:13

Dont take out any bricks. Add them. Thats what we did to gain the extra head height. It was about 3 days work for a competent brickie who isn't scared of doing something other than laying bricks.

Russinating · 16 Oct 2014 at 12:15

commited said:
Have you done the sums on this? Unless you're living nearly rent free (or have very low incomes), you are generally better off living in your first residence rather than renting it out. There are several reasons for this, mainly paying tax on the rental income as well as capital gains tax on any property value inflation. Would be interested in seeing your sums if you'd be happy to share them as I spent a lot of time modelling this (for the Irish market) and it didn't make sense.

Haven't looked at it in detail yet to be honest so very happy to get advice! We'll be there for at least 2 years so the decision to sell/rent is a little way off yet, though it will of course change how and what we do to the property.

Are there any online calculators to help with this?

I'm aware that you pay tax on the rental income and the mortage's capital interest is an expense, but not heard of the CGT on value etc.

commited · 16 Oct 2014 at 15:49

Russinating said:
Haven't looked at it in detail yet to be honest so very happy to get advice! We'll be there for at least 2 years so the decision to sell/rent is a little way off yet, though it will of course change how and what we do to the property.

Are there any online calculators to help with this?

I'm aware that you pay tax on the rental income and the mortage's capital interest is an expense, but not heard of the CGT on value etc.

Ah so you will actually live in it once done? Tbh, I wouldn't be taking the landlord mentality completely then as if you'll be there for 2 years you should create something that you like that will also please prospective tenants. Robust fixtures and fittings is the phrase I'd pick.

Don't know about online calculators but from 2 mins research, I found the following:
Advantages:
All expenses are deductable against the property income - i.e. agents fees, interest, repairs (not improvements or your time), insurance, bills, council tax etc.
Disadvantages:
The net profit (income less expenses) is taxed like any other income. You'll need to get permission from the bank to let, potentially with higher interest rates. You'll need to get a EPC as well as potentially a fire cert. There is obviously the time that you'll spend dealing with issues etc.

Capital gains tax is different in the UK, so best talk to someone who knows about it but in Ireland there is no CGT on PPRs but there are on investment properties.

Being a landlord isn't all it's cracked up to be - you're effectively putting all of your eggs in one asset basket and have to deal with tenants (and be able to cope with them trashing what was once your home). We all know that the property market is a beautiful boom and bust cycle so the whole thing can potentially get messy.

The other factor is that you may calculate that you'll be better off staying in this house longer than 2 years and save more/cut down the mortgage as much as possible and have a nice lump of equity when you move. Having a massive house is great, but they do cost a hell of a lot more to run. We decided to go with a 1450 sq ft 3+study instead of a 1950 sq ft 5 bed as there was absolutely no need for such a large house at this stage in our lives.

Out of interest, how much will the house cost all done & what rent would it expect to make?

Russinating · 16 Oct 2014 at 16:03

Thanks for your help Mark.

Yes, that's the approach we'll be taking; my girlfriend won't let me get away with any less anyway. She's already planning the decor! Our taste is quite 'good' anyway, so we'll naturally create a home that's attractive to most tenants. Based on the area and property (two bed house) we'd ideally want - and therefore aim to get - a young family, rather than students etc. It's not a student area at all anyway.

The broker that we've found for this purchase has been very good and is also based in an estate agents which is helpful. We got advice from the branch manager when we were offering on this place, despite it being a different agency. I also have an accountant via my businesses too when the time comes.

We're buying the property for £211,000, spending about £10,000 (if we don't get an extension), and hope it'll be worth in the region of £240-250,000. This property is opposite and sold at the same time as ours. They've had a small extension, otherwise it's identical, and I imagine £250,000 was a cap for potential buyers what with the stamp duty.

Rental ranges a bit in the area, from £950 (here) to £1,200 (here and here) with not much discernible difference.

Our mortgage (90% LTV) repayments will be £828.