Benefits a magnet to migrants.

[Mynight]

When there is enough from country A out them on a Hercules and drop them back off at home. Let the regime there escaping from deal with them. Serves them right for not trying to fix there own infested country and being a burden on the UK and the rest of europe.

I have no time or tolerance for any of these. Basically had enough.

You know it was pure luck you were born in the UK? It's not like you or them had a choice where you were born.

I'm not saying let them all in but that's a pretty silly comment.

 

[SPG]

Why ? Because these people put there efforts into land that gives you stuff for free ? Instead of putting that energy into sorting out there "lucky enough to be born" land.

The UK is no position to help these so called illegal immigrants, when we have the so called lucky people born in the UK having to go to food banks/ sleep on the streets etc.

If it all boils down to luck as you put it, then quite frankly tough.

 

[D.P.]

Why ? Because these people put there efforts into land that gives you stuff for free ? Instead of putting that energy into sorting out there "lucky enough to be born" land.

The UK is no position to help these so called illegal immigrants, when we have the so called lucky people born in the UK having to go to food banks/ sleep on the streets etc.

If it all boils down to luck as you put it, then quite frankly tough.

What a thoroughly disgusting person you are

 

[anything I don't mind]

You're again conflating illegal immigrants (who aren't entitled to any direct governmental support by dint of them not registering for anything) with asylum seekers and other migrants. They're not the same thing.

I'm also not convinced that in all cases there isn't significant disinformation in the scenario - you tell me that it's irrelevant whether I think it's worth the effort but you don't countenance the possibility that perhaps people aren't making good decisions because the opportunities have been missold to them. And also you're discounting that the costs (and risks) from travelling are not insignificant - presumably most would like to believe that they will be better off from having made the trip but that's not necessarily motivated primarily by a fiscal improvement in their situation, it might be that they wish to be free from persecution.



It is an exception, that doesn't mean it's the only case where it has happened but much more simply that it is not the norm. The vast majority of immigrants do not end up in big houses worth £1m+.



Out of interest where does the 700k immigrants per year come from? The ONS figures for 2013-14 state it's 560,000 immigrants with 316,000 emigrating for a net immigration figure of around 243,000. Not insignificant numbers when viewed alone but let's put that net immigration figure into context with the population of the UK being a shade over 64m (in 2013) so that equates to a rise of around 0.38% in a year.

Are you against all immigration or are you against illegal immigration primarily? In the case of illegal immigration it's bound to be rather difficult to release detailed statistics - these people are quite deliberately trying not to be tracked so you can't exactly count them up with a census, you have to make an estimate and like all estimates that means it is subject to a margin of error.

There is a big problem with trying to deal with illegal immigrants and saying whether people are illegal or legal i am not sure is a good argument. People can live in the country illegally without claiming benefits or their visa expires and they continues living there for the rest of their life. It has also been made easier with eu to become a legal immigrant, i think that is a large part of the argument.

If they want to be free from persecution they could stay in one of the several countries that they came through in order to get to the uk. I don't understand why we would want to down play the uk in the global context as a country that people would want to live in. The point is that immigration has the potential if left unchecked to result in over population leading to infrastructure and institutions becoming over capacity.

I don't know why you try and downplay the amount of immigration by bringing up the net migration. Ok, so what about if we had a negative net migration, would that be automatically good thing? If people were leaving the country more than people were joining would that just be better because of the numbers? what would be stopping it from reaching 700k net migration?

I am not against immigration, I just think that it should be discussed and understood that quick increases in population levels can have significant impact on the economy. If that is the case then it would make sense to control the borders in such a way that maximises economic results. I think this is more applicable to countries with high population densities with already pre-existing infrastructures. Sure it can probably take more people in a certain area, look at hong kong, the question is whether we want that sort of population density. I would also only allow productive people in to the country. I would make it easier for productive people from commonwealth to enter the country.

 

[semi-pro waster]

There is a big problem with trying to deal with illegal immigrants and saying whether people are illegal or legal i am not sure is a good argument. People can live in the country illegally without claiming benefits or their visa expires and they continues living there for the rest of their life. It has also been made easier with eu to become a legal immigrant, i think that is a large part of the argument.

Well if you're going to make an argument that immigrants are absorbing benefits then it absolutely does matter whether they are legal or not. By definition if they are illegal immigrants they cannot be claiming benefits. If the argument is that you don't want immigrants then sure, their legal status doesn't matter.

If they want to be free from persecution they could stay in one of the several countries that they came through in order to get to the uk. I don't understand why we would want to down play the uk in the global context as a country that people would want to live in. The point is that immigration has the potential if left unchecked to result in over population leading to infrastructure and institutions becoming over capacity.

So it's not a problem at the moment because the UK is still a desirable place to live but it might be a problem in the future?

I don't know why you try and downplay the amount of immigration by bringing up the net migration. Ok, so what about if we had a negative net migration, would that be automatically good thing? If people were leaving the country more than people were joining would that just be better because of the numbers? what would be stopping it from reaching 700k net migration?

Net migration matters because you could have 10m people coming in but if you've got 20m emigrating then the country loses population much faster than it replaces it which has huge implications for funding of services amongst other issues.

No, negative net migration isn't automatically a good thing but since I've not been arguing for less immigration you'd have to ask someone who was arguing for that to explain why they think negative net migration would be a good thing.

I am not against immigration, I just think that it should be discussed and understood that quick increases in population levels can have significant impact on the economy. If that is the case then it would make sense to control the borders in such a way that maximises economic results. I think this is more applicable to countries with high population densities with already pre-existing infrastructures. Sure it can probably take more people in a certain area, look at hong kong, the question is whether we want that sort of population density. I would also only allow productive people in to the country. I would make it easier for productive people from commonwealth to enter the country.

I suppose it depends on how you define a quick increase in population levels. I would agree that it can potentially be an issue but we might well disagree on where the level is.

I'd suggest that it could equally be an issue for countries without pre-existing infrastructures as well but in a different way. How do you define productive people? What about the families of productive people (once someone has defined that particular issue) - where is the line drawn, 1 child, 4 children, none?

 

[Terminal_Boy]

I've no sympathy for illegal immigrants. If we cannot return them to their country of origin, I am sure there is some African state which will take them for cash.

Asylum seekers should be seeking asylum in the first county they reach, or else they are not asylum seekers but economic migrants.

I'm sure the Chinese would take them off our hands for £50 a head.

 

[Mynight]

What a thoroughly disgusting person you are

I know right using "there" instead of "their" .

Why ? Because these people put there efforts into land that gives you stuff for free ? Instead of putting that energy into sorting out there "lucky enough to be born" land.

The UK is no position to help these so called illegal immigrants, when we have the so called lucky people born in the UK having to go to food banks/ sleep on the streets etc.

If it all boils down to luck as you put it, then quite frankly tough.

While we may have people suffering we need people to work in jobs contributing tax to the government as if we're to help people off food banks/streets we need more money to spend. If that means immigrants so be it. If they can become a net contributor then they should be allowed in. I'm not a fan of people taking more than they contribute but that's life and they're thankfully a minority(I'm not talking work credits to prop up a bad salary/zero hour. I mean the "there's nothing wrong with me" but haven't had a job in their life lot).

 

[robgmun]

What a thoroughly disgusting person you are

I can say the same about you, they way you want to traitorously give away our country wholesale to anyone for free.

 

[Spook187]

Supporting UKIP makes you a racist?

Joke of the day.

Yes, because it's so much easier to call someone a racist than it is to actually debate the immigration issue in a sensible manner.

Standard Gaurdianista tactics.

Indeed.

Immigration overload is a serious problem, the Tories and Labour have had the chance to sort it and failed, scared to put any laws down in this country in case someone shouts racist

 

[Pawnless Endgame]

Immigration overload is a serious problem, the Tories and Labour have had the chance to sort it and failed, scared to put any laws down in this country in case someone shouts racist

This. The general attitude these days is that everything is racist. Blackboards are racist. Black coffee is racist. You're racist. I'm racist. Everyone on GD including including the Guardian readers are racist. My local no.9 bus is racist. My 1981 BBC Micro is racist. Etc.

 

[Mynight]

Without the terms "racist" "ignorant" "xenophobe" "bigot" what else is there for a counter argument?

 

[robgmun]

This. The general attitude these days is that everything is racist. Blackboards are racist. Black coffee is racist. You're racist. I'm racist. Everyone on GD including including the Guardian readers are racist. My local no.9 bus is racist. My 1981 BBC Micro is racist. Etc.

We should re-do this song and replace Aids with Racist

 

[Caged]

Without the terms "racist" "ignorant" "xenophobe" "bigot" what else is there for a counter argument?

I'm aware that you probably already know this, but the counter-argument serves as a pretty decent counter-argument. If people actually read and engaged on the points then these threads wouldn't all be so predictably terrible. This goes for both sides before someone feels the need to point it out.

Your weary reaction to people accusing others of being racists, bigoted etc. is exactly how people on the other side of the argument feel when they bother to post real numbers and get a response of "well those numbers are made up I can tell we are being overrun by illegals who somehow also claim benefits IM VOTING UKIP!!".

 

[Mynight]

Very true caged. It was somewhat in jest but it is irritating sometimes.

Personally I don't know where I stand on it all. One hand I do see the need for immigration and see the benefits it brings on the other I see the bad sides of the strain on services the increase in house values(while these would still happen without immigration they would not be to the extent we see today. As to how large that extent is I don't know).


I can say for a fact I won't be voting ukip but I would be tempted if the Tories reneg on their in/out referendum.

 

[D.P.]

I can say the same about you, they way you want to traitorously give away our country wholesale to anyone for free.

Pathetic and wrong.

I want Briton to be a prosperous economic powerhouse that has some of the best education, health and security in the world. It can more easily achieve these goals as part of the EU. Furthermore, Immigration at current levels is supporting these objectives.

 

[Craterloads]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ignorant-about-almost-everything-9825116.html

British people think that there are twice as many immigrants in the country than is really the case – and four times as many Muslims, according to a new survey by Ipsos Mori.

The research, carried out by an online survey of approximately 1,000 people aged 16 to 64, reveals that as a nation we hugely overestimate certain numbers, believing that one in five people in the UK are Muslims (21 per cent) when the actual figure is five per cent (one in twenty). By contrast, we underestimate the number of Christians in Britain – believing that just 39 per cent identify with the religion, when the real figure is 59 per cent.

And when it comes to immigration – which was overestimated by all of the 14 countries surveyed, to some degree – we think that immigrants make up 24.4 per cent of the population, when in fact it is actually 13 per cent

These kinds of misconceptions present “clear issues for informed public debate and policy-making”, said Bobby Duffy, managing director of Ipsos Mori social research institute, who pointed out that politicians are primed to react to voter perceptions, rather than actual data. “Public priorities may well be different if we had a clearer view of the scale of immigration and the real incidence of teenage mothers,” he said.

And it appears we’re clueless about unemployment, too – believing that nearly 24 per cent of the working age population are unemployed, when the actual figure is much lower, at just seven per cent.

 

[Caged]

Very true caged. It was somewhat in jest but it is irritating sometimes.

Personally I don't know where I stand on it all. One hand I do see the need for immigration and see the benefits it brings on the other I see the bad sides of the strain on services the increase in house values(while these would still happen without immigration they would not be to the extent we see today. As to how large that extent is I don't know).


I can say for a fact I won't be voting ukip but I would be tempted if the Tories reneg on their in/out referendum.

To be honest I'd quite like to see someone who identifies themselves as a UKIP supporter manage to list out their current gripes with the country/their current situation and then put a UKIP policy next to each one that they think will help. I'm really not sure how the party has managed to convince some people they are fighting for the working man and that the EU is the cause of all our problems, and leaving will solve them, but I'd be fascinated to read any research that gets published about it.

 

[D.P.]

I'm aware that you probably already know this, but the counter-argument serves as a pretty decent counter-argument. If people actually read and engaged on the points then these threads wouldn't all be so predictably terrible. This goes for both sides before someone feels the need to point it out.

Your weary reaction to people accusing others of being racists, bigoted etc. is exactly how people on the other side of the argument feel when they bother to post real numbers and get a response of "well those numbers are made up I can tell we are being overrun by illegals who somehow also claim benefits IM VOTING UKIP!!".

The problem is many UKIP supporters are simply racist bigots so it is hard to get away from such terms.

Sure, plenty of others may not be but they have no interest is listening to reason and instead cling to their illogical beliefs. There is plenty of objective evidence to support that current immigration is beneficial economically to the UK but that evidence is ignored in a mindless rant about stealing jobs (even although there is no evidence as such, immigration can actually be a tool for job creation and the economy grows).

 

[D.P.]

I'm aware that you probably already know this, but the counter-argument serves as a pretty decent counter-argument. If people actually read and engaged on the points then these threads wouldn't all be so predictably terrible. This goes for both sides before someone feels the need to point it out.

Your weary reaction to people accusing others of being racists, bigoted etc. is exactly how people on the other side of the argument feel when they bother to post real numbers and get a response of "well those numbers are made up I can tell we are being overrun by illegals who somehow also claim benefits IM VOTING UKIP!!".

The problem is many UKIP supporters are simply racist bigots so it is hard to get away from such terms.

Sure, plenty of others may not be but they have no interest is listening to reason and instead cling to their illogical beliefs. There is plenty of objective evidence to support that current immigration is beneficial economically to the UK but that evidence is ignored in a mindless rant about stealing jobs (even although there is no evidence as such, immigration can actually be a tool for job creation and the economy grows).

 

[Tefal]

Pathetic and wrong.

I want Briton to be a prosperous economic powerhouse that has some of the best education, health and security in the world. It can more easily achieve these goals as part of the EU. Furthermore, Immigration at current levels is supporting these objectives.

I thought you lived in America?