Caporegime
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And how does this surplus to economy filter down to the average British citizen?
Will UKIP win its first seat in parliament tonight?
- Thread starter Danthus
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And how does this surplus to economy filter down to the average British citizen?
Soldato
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The money goes to the Exchequer you can check the HMRC website on how they spend the taxes they collect and yes it does filter down to the average citizen in terms of healthcare, education, pensions etc
Soldato
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how does any money in the economy filter down to the average British citizen?
Starts off with a single waffle, with no meaning other then you like reading what you put.
I will give you my opinion as I don't speak for others.
I've already gave you my opinion based on what I know what it was like before we joined.
Everybody has their own reason why don't like the EU. You would need to ask them. But here what I think\opinion
http://www.ukip.org/issues all this.
I gave you a UK Government 59 page pdf to answer that.
But we are forced to accept murders from the EU because people like you think it's a swell idea. Alice Gross comes to mind.
Again I can only speak for myself. But
Cosworth\audi in Worcester hired EU immigrants because they was cheap So the local people of Worcester got laid off.
Well that was until immigration came to the factory and the place suddenly emptied.
Again Audi had a contract making a V6 block. They brought over people from the EU
which I had to train up. Then Audi shut down the plant and moved to a cheaper place in the EU.
No bother to me as I just moved back to Florida for 3 years
It's not. But hey don't let facts get in the way
"Immigrants must financially support themselves and their dependents for 5 years. This means private health insurance (except emergency medical care), private education and private housing - they should pay into the pot before they take out of it."
"A points-based visa system and time-limited work permits"
"Proof of private health insurance must be a precondition for immigrants and tourists to enter the UK."
- UK has currently one of the lower immigration percentages per capita among economically leading countries (both continent wise and globally). Why then do you, personally, feel immigration and immigration control is the number one problem in Britain today?
Why is it "unprecedented" as it's already being done. Anyway we have all the Common wealth to trade with.
Again read the 59 page Gov pdf.
Britain can set up deals with Commonwealth countries. How do we know this - because we already discussed it and someone used the picture below in one of the UKIP threads. And you were voicing your concerns there, in that thread. Look how pretty, full and round India, Australia and other Commonwealth countries look in there (for countries that UK is not allowed to trade with by evil EU)...
You would have to ask them. Nice pictures of waffle, with eggs
How do you think we did it before? it was a much better system. It was a visa system all round so each country knew
who was coming in to there country and if they was criminals or not.
So one could chose who lived here\there. A very easy system and it worked for many many years.
Each state does it the same way. One year Florida wanted to put the state tax up by 1%
0.05 for the HYWS off 52 and 19. and the rest for teachers. We voted yes for the teachers and no for the roads.
Other laws like "stand your ground law" bought in by J Bush. The people of Florida asked for it. And what a dam good law it is.
At the end of the day you can always leave just like I and millions of others did.
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Well, as the numbers suggest - they pay government 2.2bln in taxes to cover considerable black hole left in budget by ageing local population. It might be two point two drops in the red sea, but the sum is still nearly as big as the infamous "foreign aid" which gives UKIP voters countless sleepless nights, so at least now someone covers some outgoing costs in this house.
According to Nigel Farage answering calls on LBC on Friday, 7 Nov 2014, at present "European migrants are not a big burden on health care because by very definition most of them are very young" (not my words, the gospel comes from the man himself, answering series of questions posed by caller named Layla), so apparently they do not require much upkeep or worry public purses too much, at least not at the moment.
They provide local businesses with workforce and expansion possibilities by filling spaces unwanted or unmanned by locals (it is yet to be proven in any UKIP related thread that any Brit with native command of language, local address and proven solid British education could lose an interview to any co-applying individual that just arrived on a bus from Prague or Warsaw, whether with like-for-like skill set or lack thereof, unless they really wanted to lose for some reason, that is)
According to popular UKIP-derived anecdotal evidence they provide end consumer in need of low skilled labour with countless opportunities to acquire cheaper and often more reliable means to mend, repair, maintain and build their properties, thus leaving millions of people a week with more money in their pockets.
Both historically and currently they have proven to integrate with local communities almost as good as native British macronations, many of them are very active within their communities, even UKIP vetted several EU migrants as their candidates in the last local elections, several UKIP MEPs have European migrants among their personal aids (MEP Gerard Batten has Polish and Russian staff, MEP Roger Helmer has Italian PA, MEP William Dartmouth's PA is from Denmark, Kirsten - Nigel's very own German wife was his assistant, after EU banned family members from being logged as staff on tax payers wages, she was re-positioned as member of staff to MEP Ray Finch) etc, etc.
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lol
Don't hold Florida up as an example of how to do anything remotely related to the modern era.
I do like "reading what I put". There are moments I'm almost proud of it.
But before UK "joined" EU (I mean, UK was a founding member of EFTA in 1960 as a counter to EEC, and then immediately applied to be member in 1961, it was not as much "joining" as "merging the clubs" as Nigel would without a doubt put it) almost none of the issues behind http://www.ukip.org/issues looked that much different. People still complained about immigration (mostly from Commonwealth, in millions per year at some point), borders weren't particularly closed or protected, "club" fees were still there - Britain practically invented them, "them foreigners" were still stealing "the jewbs" (without minimum wage) - the whole "no dogs, no Irish" straight-to-the point non-pc culture etc.
Yes, media were slower, morning news from Commonwealth would often travel for weeks, so it was easier to do "necessary evil". The British Nationality Act in fifties offered nearly 800 million "subjects" right to settle in UK. Large group of WWII veterans exercised their right, everyone got upset, Act was scrapped, "subjects" were not welcomed anymore, Commonwealth Immigrants Act meant to kick everyone back "home". In sixties news were still slow, so it allowed to leave few million people in Kenya for Idi Amin to sort out. British Nationality Act. Uganda. Enoch Powell. Rivers of blood. Race Relations Bill. The Immigration Act. Race Relations Act. First one. Second One. Third one. Almost none related to European migration, btw.
I can't pretend to remember any of it, I wasn't born until seventies, all I know is from documentaries, so what was it like "before" EU? Does a place like that still exist anywhere in Europe? Do you really think it is viable for UKIP to return UK to 1960ies?
No matter how unfortunate I'm not sure this is the best case for separating tens of millions of people from entire continent. It's debatable who, if anyone, is at fault in that single case as well. British borders are not being guarded by EU. All the checkpoints and powers are solely in disposition of British Border Agency.
Singular cases do happen. And they go both ways. Rurik Jutting has British passport. 5,418 Britons were arrested last year for various offences overseas. European forces fished out 133 British fugitives wanted in UK from various parts of EU. 13 of Britain's most-wanted criminals according to National Crime Agency are being actively tracked in Spain at the moment.
The one next to M5? Replacement layoffs shouldn't be possible under current employment law. No union?
We might see this more and more often, the uncertainty and anti EU climate every few years is not particularly healthy for or welcomed by large corporations. First hand experience, I know of at least one major multinational corporation that decided not to move their head offices from France to UK, despite their prior strong inclination (easier babysitting of North American market etc), because of the shaky long term prospects politically speaking.
No bother to me as I just moved back to Florida for 3 years
So you are alien stealing them jewbs yourself and you are so strongly against aliens?
That's kind of done, to a degree, already, EU migrants can't claim unless they work/pay taxes, workers registration scheme is in place for new members, someone knows otherwise?
Health insurance - technically anyone who has National Insurance Number has a proof of insurance (as the name suggests). You can't have NI card unless you register in person and work, that's already in place - this is almost self fixing - verify NI card with any form of ID at NHS desk and problem is sorted?
But again, as we said before in one of the threads - considering most migrants find employment in "unwanted" sectors - what kind of points system would you organise for coffee barista, fork lift driver or field worker? Or chippy, or decorator/plasterer/tiler?
Kind of exists already - EHIC I think it's called. It's a given that every EU ID holder has one. They fix your broken nose on Ibiza, NHS will fix their drunken toreador fetched out from Ministry Of Sound by bouncers. Bilateral agreement.
Where is it done, which European country has FTA with EU without membership, EFTA or EEA? Microstates and principalities?
Again, this system still kind of exists, because Britain is not part of Schengen agreement, so BBA does maintain full control of all borders and such checks are still possible. French built special internment camps south of the channel for all the questionable individuals that were refused entry Britain. Pensioners of those camps are often trying to force their way through railway tunnels and many are regularly picked on daily basis from among fruits on lorries. It's internal matter whether BBA exercise all the powers correctly or not.
Visas are completely different story. It was ok-ish idea when most people had no cars, holiday abroad was done twice a lifetime and flying was something only rich people used to do. It's a different world now, imagine number of people going through Heathrow every minute, imagine chains of lorries delivering perishable goods, where every driver has to have his visa renewed prior to entry and exit on both borders.
Freedom of movement exists because everyone was sick of visas. EU7 was given automatic right to work, because Labour believed denying entry would only create massive black market. If people could arrive as tourists and there was just no way to track everyone afterwards, options were limited. Conservatives tried to control it with Alien Registration Bureau for ten years prior to New Labour, but it was just a lot of paperwork and no gain.
At the time it was already happening among Aussies and Kiwis (by tens of thousands) around London and south east. Arrive as a tourist, work in some local bar for some time, cash in hand, travel around Europe. Some industries still run full throttle on it, the Brazilian bike couriers, night shifts in corner shops, self drive unmarked mini cabs, Chinese take aways, the Lithuanians and Russians providing "services" etc. Everyone from outside EU needs working visa. Unless entering as student or tourist. In a globalised world that grew two and a half times since sixties, where you can negotiate Europe end to end in three hours, you would need to chip people with beacons and monitor them like Congestion Charge 24/7 to make sure they leave. And even then they would probably find some way around it. If they want to stay and work, they will stay and work. Would you prefer if immigration was more of a "under the table" thing, like Mexicans in US?
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All great points but just a quick query isnt a NI number available to anyone with a "right to work" afaik you can't gain employment without one so would be kind of difficult to meet the in work requirement for application.
All EU members have the right to work in the UK don't they?
All EU members have the right to work in the UK don't they?
I see what you mean, NI card is issued to anyone with right to work regardless of whether they are currently employed/paying NI contributions or not. A percentage of people, both local, British born, and EU migrants might still use it even if they never paid a penny into the pot. Well, as imperfect as it might be - at least it would let the people worried about the rumoured "health tourism" sleep at night.
Everyone would have to go through the appointment at JobCentre, interview and processing, documents are checked and scanned during that process, takes few days or weeks, and that's before you could visit NHS. Any services rendered, any surgeries scheduled would be assigned to NI number, not just a name and surname (often misspelled while manually inputting into the system by third party) - one number for your life, regardless of where your GP is, all easy to pull up and check against contributions by the taxman. You could even delegate some sort of verification process to the taxman for sign off before something cosmetic or expensive is fixed or non life threatening procedures are done?
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I do believe the NI is poorly implemented. Whilst I would never want to refuse anyone emergency treatment regardless of expense I have never been asked for a NI number when ending up in hospital. First name and surname is all that's ever been asked. I honestly don't even remember giving it to my GP when signing up(I'll have to check). How can they possibly track what's being spent on whom if there's no basic checks done.
Personally I think an awful lot of money is wasted at the managerial level of the NHS which if improved could easily reduce the nhs deficits. It's hard to believe a country spend more than it produces.
Would be interesting to see how much I've paid into the system vs how much I've taken out say in police time, nhs, school fees and so on.
Personally I think an awful lot of money is wasted at the managerial level of the NHS which if improved could easily reduce the nhs deficits. It's hard to believe a country spend more than it produces.
Would be interesting to see how much I've paid into the system vs how much I've taken out say in police time, nhs, school fees and so on.
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Oh, all of the above is purely speculative "if they really wanted to save some money" scenario. Poster quoted UKIP manifesto demanding proof of private health insurance from foreign workers, I replied with note that every working migrant already has health insurance - National Insurance, which as a system, is completely underused and could be a perfect alternative to ID card - it's unique, it's for life, it could be used within health system or to verify if subject is entitled to treatments in the first place, similar to "social insurance" in US or similar systems in most places across Europe.
Obviously NHS would first have proper centralised system and storage (I don't think Inland Revenue or Border Agency have anything like that at the moment either), etc, etc.
Obviously NHS would first have proper centralised system and storage (I don't think Inland Revenue or Border Agency have anything like that at the moment either), etc, etc.
I do like "reading what I put". There are moments I'm almost proud of it.
More waffle with extra spam. Everyone has their opinion and when we do leave the EU
and you don't like it, you can leave...oh no wait...in other countries you have to pay in before you take out
looks like you're stuck here.Got to ask. Are you or your family immigrant's to the UK?
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Soldato
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v0n, you have the patience of a saint.
More waffle with extra spam. Everyone has their opinion and when we do leave the EU
and you don't like it, you can leave...oh no wait...in other countries you have to pay in before you take out
Yeah - you definitely lost that debate.
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fixed.
Soldato
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Everyone pushes their own agenda, it's human nature, I fail to see how it's a negative:
"You have an agenda!"
"Of course I do, if I didn't it wouldn't be much of a debate would it?".
The point I'm making is that it's very difficult to maintain a level headed stance when the people you're debating with have little interest in constructive discussion, and instead prefer to fall back on "waffle". I probably would have just given it up as a lost cause and found myself someone more interesting to talk to.
Soldato
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More waffle with extra spam. Everyone has their opinion and when we do leave the EU
and you don't like it, you can leave...oh no wait...in other countries you have to pay in before you take out
Got to ask. Are you or your family immigrant's to the UK?
So far all I have seen from people on the opposite side to v0n is, and I will use your term here, waffle. v0n has presented some opinion but mostly facts that counter UKIP's policies.
Then we get trite like "if you don't like it you can leave" and "Are you or your family migrants?"
Classy.
