Toyota unveils first hydrogen-powered car called Mirai

[alx]

Are hydrogen fuel cells really only 40% efficient? Where does the rest of the energy go?

Heat, frictional losses, etc. Still an improvement on combustion engine efficiencies which are noticeably less.

Even if you up the fuel cell efficiency to 50-60%, it wouldn't get the overall efficiency of the hydrogen chain/infrastructure to anywhere near that of the electricity one.

 

[lemonade]

In what way do you think electric hybrids are a false economy? Not saying I don't believe you, just want to know your reasoning.

If you think electric hybrids are a false economy I don't really see how you can't see hydrogen as the same....

Hydrogen and fuels cells are a great idea when you just look at the small system (i.e. just the car). When you look at the bigger picture of how you produce the hydrogen and get it to the car it falls apart in my view.

because of the fact that they have your regular petrol/diesel combustion engine, the two main goals of hydrogen and ev cars is to cut down on pollution and less reliance on fossil fuels, which a hybrid wouldn't do, a fully ev car might, but then it brings other problems with it such as limited range of us and recharge times.

I find hydrogen fuel cell a very intriguing idea, as you still have the same benefits as your fossil fuel except it is more efficient by having greater energy but zero pollution.

I agree with the infrastructure thing, its is complex and will cost huge amounts of money and resources to support the system, but 10 years ago they were saying hydrogen cars will never be feasible and now mass production cars are only round the corner and I am sure the technology will get better and more efficient. I haven't seen a great deal of improvement in EV technology mainly because of the lack of development in battery technology which seems stagnant or non existent.

Then again if millions started using EV I would imagine that would put a lot of strain on the national grid and cause more pollution as now you need the power plants to pump more energy.

Either way ultimately both are a bit of a facade when it comes to greeness as both require electric to work which run on fossil fuels.

 

[Glaucus]

Then you haven't been looking, on average lithium ion capacity has been increasing at 8% a year.
With a dozen or so prototypes that will be a massive break though of 5x+ current capacity with longer lives and faster charging. If they prove mass producible we should start seeing them, by 2018ish.

And they are far from a façade as the grid is going more and more renewable/nuclear. Even ignoring that, the efficiency using the national grid is massive. From the power plants that are far more efficient and much easier to reduce pollution on large scale, to the transport through thru grid, to the efficiency of batteries.

 

[Ryan-3]

What came first, the petrol station or the car?

Very true. The world's first "petrol station" was a pharmacy, used by Karl Benz's wife. She had the car but nowhere to fill it.

This infrastructure will appear, but it won't be overnight and it'll probably run along side battery powered electric cars for a while. VHS/Betamax

 

[Simon]

I've not seen any industry data or trends that suggest anything other than plug in hybrid being the future up to 2050.

EVs will drop as super credits wind down. Tesla are making millions just from selling these credits to other OEMs.

CNG and LPG is an option now. Especially in the US where gas is now cheap.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Then you haven't been looking, on average lithium ion capacity has been increasing at 8% a year.

Is that when you use crack cocaine at the cathode?