Will UKIP win its first seat in parliament tonight?

[Tefal]

I think the biggest problem we have is that the three main parties are not saying or doing things that appeal to anyone really (certainly not to me anyhow)

ukip are appealing to certain people and representing their thoughts and wishes and therefore doing quite well
(yes mostly by pandering to unfounded fears - BUT they do represent those views even if like me you think they suck danglies)

because the people who regularly vote vote for the same aprty no matter what ity or any other party does.

So the only people that actually matter are the small groups of various nutter who'll vote for whoever offers to appease them.

then about 50% of the voting population just don't bother turning up and complain abut the government that doesn't listen to them.

 

[scorza]

Please learn to read before using the keyboard.

I said having an England flag is associated with groups who are racists (EDL, BNP) - do the Māori people have a current popular cultural association with racism?.

I'm saying that the association may be expected, not that it's correct.

He's right. Like it or not people will judge you for having visible tattoos, if you're lucky they'll tell you that judgement to your face but most of the time they'll say nothing and talk about it behind your back.

 

[Tefal]

If more normal, respectable people displayed publicly their patriotism it would do much for the general image of it.

but they're scared to because people like you will be prejudiced against them, discriminate them and generally consider them a bigot etc.


ironic really.

 

[cheesyboy]

but they're scared to because people like you will be prejudiced against them, discriminate them and generally consider them a bigot etc.


ironic really.

THe Swastika was originally (and still is) a religious symbol, a positive one. Its adoption by the Nazis has rather changed perceptions, and you would now look like a proper racist if you displayed one.

The English nationalistic tattoos aren't, of course, as strong a symbol of bigotry as the swastika has become one of "evil", but they certainly have been adopted by, as Elmarko points out, groups of very intolerant, bigoted, and often violent individuals. Hence people see the tattoos and think "racist".

It's a problem caused by those racist groups, rather than people like Elmarko who acknowledge the reality.

 

[Tefal]

THe Swastika was originally (and still is) a religious symbol, a positive one. Its adoption by the Nazis has rather changed perceptions, and you would now look like a proper racist if you displayed one.

The English nationalistic tattoos aren't, of course, as strong a symbol of bigotry as the swastika has become one of "evil", but they certainly have been adopted by, as Elmarko points out, groups of very intolerant, bigoted, and often violent individuals. Hence people see the tattoos and think "racist".

It's a problem caused by those racist groups, rather than people like Elmarko who acknowledge the reality.

Not really its mostly adopted by football fans.

And no the blame lays with the prejudiced bigots who judge them for having any national pride.

Stop blaming the victim.

 

[Tombo]

It's a problem caused by those racist groups, rather than people like Elmarko who acknowledge the reality.

Sounds like the sort of argument a racist would make, that the problems are caused by those who they dislike. Then again you are the ones who are right so I suppose it doesn't count.

 

[cheesyboy]

Not really its mostly adopted by football fans.

And no the blame lays with the prejudiced bigots who judge them for having any national pride.

Stop blaming the victim.

"groups of very intolerant, bigoted, and often violent individuals" doesn't apply to football fans?!

^ I'm mostly jesting. But the traditional football fanbase does fit that description, by stereotype.

 

[elmarko]

but they're scared to because people like you will be prejudiced against them, discriminate them and generally consider them a bigot etc.

Are they really?.

Not really its mostly adopted by football fans.

And no the blame lays with the prejudiced bigots who judge them for having any national pride.

Stop blaming the victim.

Who is blaming the victim?, saying that group A gives people who have a similar style a bad name (while clearly maintaining that this isn't correct, but it is expected - if you read my posts I said the question was reasonable, not the assertion that they are racist).

It would be reasonable for somebody to caution me about having Hannya's in the traditional Japanese style when visiting Japan due to the common cultural association with criminality. It wouldn't be reasonable for them to assume I am a criminal, but the association would be expected.

The above is the exact same argument I stated regarding an England flag tattoo (which also has negative cultural associations), the judgements would be to expected - but those judgements are wrong (as it's incorrect to make assumptions based entirely off appearance)

 

[Tefal]

Sounds like the sort of argument a racist would make, that the problems are caused by those who they dislike. Then again you are the ones who are right so I suppose it doesn't count.

hey no, just because black people are disproportionately involved in crime and violence doesn't mean it's fair to assume black people are all thuggish criminals

Although apparently i am only acknowledge reality if i think that way and its a ok :/

Which i find troublesome.

 

[Tefal]

Are they really?.

YUp, this very thread is full of people who say they wouldn't display a st Georges cross because they think they'd be judged.

How about you marko would you hang one out the window for a bit?

 

[Tefal]

"groups of very intolerant, bigoted, and often violent individuals" doesn't apply to football fans?!

^ I'm mostly jesting. But the traditional football fanbase does fit that description, by stereotype.

guess there really is no debating with a bigot....

 

[cheesyboy]

hey no, just because black people are disproportionately involved in crime and violence doesn't mean it's fair to assume black people are all thuggish criminals

Although apparently i am only acknowledge reality if i think that way and its a ok :/

Which i find troublesome.

Choosing to have a type of tattoo is likely to be a bigger indicator of your character than is your race.

Nonetheless, no-one is saying that nationalistic tattoo bearers are all racist, simply that there is a tendency to link the behaviour of getting such Tats with the behaviour of a racist due to the high profile images of racists we see who carry such ink.

 

[elmarko]

YUp, this very thread is full of people who say they wouldn't display a st Georges cross because they think they'd be judged.

How about you marko would you hang one out the window for a bit?

I wouldn't hang one out the window anyway (I'm not remotely patriotic & disagree with the entire concept of nationhood).

But If I was inclined to that way I most certainly would, neither would I blame somebody who was normal & patriotic if they wanted to display it overtly.

The difference is, the question "are you not worried you may be seen as a racist" would still be seen as reasonable as that's the popular association with it (England tattoo), but the actual assumption they are racist is incorrect & judgemental (as obviously not all who do have it are, just the ones who get popular exposure in the media).

I've had people question piercings & tattoos, regarding if it would damage my career (it hasn't & wouldn't in my line of work) but the question it'self is a reasonable one - as regardless as to if the assumption is judgemental & incorrect - the question is simply a recognition of reality.

Asking a person from a commonly discriminated against minority if it's wise to visit an extremist prejudiced compound in the southern states doesn't mean you approve of the judgements they face, just a recognition that that choice may have undesired consequences - it's hardly a complex concept.

My contrarian sense is tingling anyway, I've got a feeling you know full well what was meant.

 

[Caged]

Fixed.

Are you 12?

 

[v0n]

Flying classy flag on the pole can be beautiful, American's have this cornered to perfection, some even include lowering and rising ceremony.
Dirty polyester rags draped from, literally, gutters across your windows is not a display of patriotism or legion to your country, it's active devaluation of the symbol, if anything.

 

[Stretch]

Flying classy flag on the pole can be beautiful, American's have this cornered to perfection, some even include lowering and rising ceremony.
Dirty polyester rags draped from, literally, gutters across your windows is not a display of patriotism or legion to your country, it's active devaluation of the symbol, if anything.

Agreed. Poly flags should be banned.

 

[John40]

(I'm not remotely patriotic & disagree with the entire concept of nationhood).

How very sixth form.

 

[robgmun]

As this is a UKIP thread, i'm sticking this up for posterity:

Ukip MP Mark Reckless speech

 

[elmarko]

How very sixth form.

Not being fan of patriotism/nationhood has no relation to maturity, neither is it a childish position. In-fact it's one held by some of the greatest thinkers in history.

Diogenes, Greek philosopher, circa 360 BC - "I am a citizen of the world."

Albert Einstein, scientist (1879-1955) - "Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."

Samuel Johnson, British man of letters, 1709-1784 - "Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels."

Thomas Paine, English-American philosopher, 1737 -- 1809 - "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren and to do good is my religion."

Socrates, circa 400 BC: - "I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world."

Howard Zinn, U.S. historian, 2005 - "There was something horrifying in the realization that, in this twenty-first century of what we call 'civilization,' we have carved up what we claim is one world into 200 artificially created entities we call 'nations' and armed to apprehend or kill anyone who crosses a boundary.

"...We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation."

Carl Sagan - "Up there in the immensity of the Cosmos, an inescapable perception awaits us. National boundaries are not evident when we view the Earth from space. Fanatical ethnic, religious or national chauvinisms are a little difficult to maintain when we see our planet as a fragile blue crescent fading to become an inconspicuous point of light against the bastion and citadel of the stars."

 

[phill1978]

Not being fan of patriotism/nationhood has no relation to maturity, neither is it a childish position. In-fact it's one held by some of the greatest thinkers in history.

Diogenes, Greek philosopher, circa 360 BC - "I am a citizen of the world."

Albert Einstein, scientist (1879-1955) - "Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."

Samuel Johnson, British man of letters, 1709-1784 - "Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels."

Thomas Paine, English-American philosopher, 1737 -- 1809 - "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren and to do good is my religion."

Socrates, circa 400 BC: - "I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world."

Howard Zinn, U.S. historian, 2005 - "There was something horrifying in the realization that, in this twenty-first century of what we call 'civilization,' we have carved up what we claim is one world into 200 artificially created entities we call 'nations' and armed to apprehend or kill anyone who crosses a boundary.

"...We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation."

read back a few pages.. its what I was discussing.