Justified or gun happy?

[TheStarkFactor]

Yes and I said it's a 12 year old kid, nobody wants a child to get hurt did they do evertything they could to protect him from a situation he put himself into not fully understanding what kind of a serious situation he was in?

I agree, it's a fair question to ask, but their responsibility isn't just to the 12 year old kid, but the wider public that were also present at the time.

If a split second decision is required, then surely putting down one potential threat is the wiser more logical decision rather than attempting alternative tactics which may result in more than one death if the gun had been real and used against members of the public or the police officers themselves.

Apparently there was CCTV at the location so it will be interesting to see what that reveals.

A 12 year old loss of life is tragic, I have a daughter and can totally relate to the emotions involved, but I would hope that my daughter would never bee in a position where she is running around the street with an imitation firearm trying to scare people with it.

I also appreciate that when I was younger that I had lots of guns, that looked real and ran around the streets pretending to shoot my friends in various games.

However times have changed here in the UK, just look at the changes in gun laws over the years and the US is totally different to the UK. So what was acceptable in the past is no longer acceptable now.

 

[Strife212]

It's legal to walk around with a AR15 rifle slung over your back in a lot of places in the US. It's a completely different mindset from here.

 

[Tefal]

I remember I saw on crime documentary a sniper shoot a gun out of a mans hand sitting on a park bench. All I'm saying is different approaches can be made for different situations.

In this case it was a 12 year old kid and when a kid has 2 guns pointing at him he may react in a different manner to an adult.

in that situation the man was sat with the gun loosely in his hand threatening to shoot himself not others and there had been a very long stand off.

and a sniper rifle with lots of time is slightly different to a pistol and no time.

but given the kid had the gun in his waist band, shooting the gun would have resulted in exactly the same outcome = kid shot in the stomach.

 

[RoboCod]

Forces subscribe to the doctrine of ROE and right to self defence. The wording differs from country to country but the basis is the same.

If the officer PERCEIVES there to be an imminent threat to life (his own, or someone else), he may use reasonable force to remove that threat. As the perceived threat is a person with an firearm, and reaching for that firearm, then there is perceived imminent threat to life. Reasonable force is obviously to shoot.

The officer is justified in his actions. He isn't going to be prosecuted successfully so long as he can stand up in court and testify the above. It doesn't really matter if he is a boy /young man/whatever. He appeared to be a threat.

 

[Nitefly]

I guess he must have reached for his gun to take it out of his belt and throw it to the floor....

 

[mattyfez]

More the reason for police to wear HD helmet/shoulder cams, very cheap compared to the investigations, media storm and law suits that follow these type of events (edit: and public disorder/riots) , they are relatively cheap and there would be much better evidence either way in the case of split decision incidents like this.

I'm pretty sure the police didn't wake up that morning and think 'I'm gonna shoot me a kid' any more than the kid woke up and thought 'I'm gonna get myself shot dead and spark off an international news sensation'.

 

[Angilion]

I would rather police were certain that a boy with a gun is an active threat before slaying him. If that means waiting until a moment of aggression, so be it (surely kids with toy guns are miles more common than actual murderous children?!). Killing kids with toy guns is not preferable to waiting a few moments to gain absolute certainty. They shot him because he didn't put his hands up - he didn't point the gun at anyone. And he was 12 - a child. If it was sex we were talking about, it would be statutory rape - children that young need added protection from the law, even if it means giving them some benefit of the doubt when apparently carrying a firearm.

What about all the other children - the ones who might get shot by someone who pulls a gun in a playground? Children have been shot by other children. It's a genuine risk. It's also pretty much impossible to accurately assess someone's age (you can be sure that the photo being shown is unrepresentative and probably out of date) and irrelevant anyway. A 12 year old can pull a trigger just as easily as an adult. Also, it takes very little time to move your arm and pull the trigger on a gun that's already in your hand. Less time than it takes someone else to see it happening and wait until they are certain that it's happening and decide on a course of action and implement that course of action.

The only way to be certain that a person who has a gun in their hand is an active threat is to be too late to stop them shooting someone. That's why the first response has to be a command to disarm and keep their hands in plain sight.

Sometimes the police will shoot someone and it will turn out to have been unnecessary. Sometimes the police will not shoot someone and that someone will shoot someone else. It's impossible for the police to be precisely right every time.

 

[Angilion]

Like I said, you wait for aggression.

Drawing a gun is an act of aggression. If you wait until they're pointing it at someone, you've waited too long. If you wait until they make a verbal threat, that might never happen. People don't have to speak before shooting someone.

 

[Alz_D]

If the gun was real and the headline read "12 year old kills 2 police officers" the public reaction would be that they shouldn't have hesitated and fired. It's a tragic story but I can't fault the actions of the police who are there to protect the public and each other.

 

[Angilion]

[..] I'd of got there, stayed behind my police car, told the kid to put his hands up and if he didnt and reached for the gun my first thought wouldnt be pull the trigger ffs!! I'd of stayed behind cover and analyzed the situation from there. [..]

And sooner or later what would happen is that several children are dead because the police stayed behind cover and did nothing while someone brandished a gun in a playground.

As an aside, a car isn't really cover. Not an ordinary car, anyway. I'm fairly sure that standard police cars aren't armoured, not even in the USA. You might get lucky and have a bullet fired at you hit a more substantial part of the car, but it's not really cover.

 

[Tefal]

As an aside, a car isn't really cover. Not an ordinary car, anyway. I'm fairly sure that standard police cars aren't armoured, not even in the USA. You might get lucky and have a bullet fired at you hit a more substantial part of the car, but it's not really cover.

thats why you sit behind the engine block

[..] I'd of got there, stayed behind my police car, told the kid to put his hands up and if he didnt and reached for the gun my first thought wouldnt be pull the trigger ffs!! I'd of stayed behind cover and analyzed the situation from there. [..]

So while someone who has been reported threatening people in a public park with a gun, pulls out a gun in this public place with civilians around you just hide?

Think there's a good reason your not a cop tbh.


cause at this point your now stuck behind cover hes aiming a gun at you, you try to aim at him he'll have shot at you (possibly hitting you but these are pistols after all) and you'll be stuck even more

 

[edscdk]

This is a picture of the weapon.

I defy anyone to be able to judge whether that is real or a replica.

I dunno, but put it in a 12yr old hand and put him in a playground and I'd say it's a toy and I'd be right.

 

[Kronos]

It has been mentioned police officers should where video cameras to record their actions. Why will that make a difference as there are many cases of police being caught on camera beating the crap out of unarmed people and getting away with it.

 

[edscdk]

And if the gun had been real and the kid had gone on a spree?

If he wanted a bloodbath why would he wait in the open for cops to arrive?

I bet 100s of thousands of kids play everyday outside with toy guns. How many 12yr olds go on killing sprees?

Had boy been corrects colour I bet he would still be alive.

I'd hope there is more to this story, that in some way the kid really did deserve it (like taking a hostage and threatening to kill then) just make me feel sick a 12 yr old playing gets blown away

 

[Kamwah]

Justified. Could've been real, you have to judge whether the risk is worth the lives of yourself and everyone around you.

lol @ people saying it's racism.

 

[FTM]

If he wanted a bloodbath why would he wait in the open for cops to arrive?

I bet 100s of thousands of kids play everyday outside with toy guns. How many 12yr olds go on killing sprees?

Had boy been corrects colour I bet he would still be alive.

I'd hope there is more to this story, that in some way the kid really did deserve it (like taking a hostage and threatening to kill then) just make me feel sick a 12 yr old playing gets blown away

he didnt even have the gun in his hand when they arrived on scene, it was on the ground and they observed him pick it..he was also playing with his sister and a friend

from the washington post

"When two Cleveland police officers arrived at the scene, a rookie officer saw the boy beneath a gazebo, picking up the gun and tucking it into his waistband. Police said the officer ordered him to raise his hands, but he raised his shirt instead — reaching for the gun. The officer fired twice. One shot hit the boy in the stomach."

"Tamir had been playing at the park with his sister and a friend when he was confronted by police. He never shouted or verbally threatened the officers. He never pointed the gun at them. But he did reach for it, police said."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...gun-that-looked-like-a-semi-automatic-pistol/

he was also only 10 feet away when he fired twice...and only hit him once!

 

[Danthus]

Hindsight is great, luckily most of us will never be in the sort of situation the police officers found themselves in and have to make that split second decision.

 

[FTM]

Hindsight is great, luckily most of us will never be in the sort of situation the police officers found themselves in and have to make that split second decision.

no doubt about it...but its symptomatic now of a country that has guns among the populace and that has no real laws to enusre that the guns are kept safely

in most countries where you are allowed firearms you also have to have secure storage and the ammunition is to be stored seperately...in this country the police will inspect these

in america you can buy a gun, take it home and keep it in a shoebox under your bed if you want, nobody checks.


people simply dont know if its real or not and so this is the fallout

also of interest is that the US govt keeps statistics of law enforcement officers who are shot..it doesnt keep statistics on civilians shot by law enforcement

 

[Orionaut]

If he wanted a bloodbath why would he wait in the open for cops to arrive?

I bet 100s of thousands of kids play everyday outside with toy guns. How many 12yr olds go on killing sprees?

Had boy been corrects colour I bet he would still be alive.

I'd hope there is more to this story, that in some way the kid really did deserve it (like taking a hostage and threatening to kill then) just make me feel sick a 12 yr old playing gets blown away

More than likely!

The Cop would undoubtedly have been even more aware of the dismal statistics than most.

 

[DAIR]

If he wanted a bloodbath why would he wait in the open for cops to arrive?

I bet 100s of thousands of kids play everyday outside with toy guns. How many 12yr olds go on killing sprees?

Had boy been corrects colour I bet he would still be alive.

I'd hope there is more to this story, that in some way the kid really did deserve it (like taking a hostage and threatening to kill then) just make me feel sick a 12 yr old playing gets blown away

Are you serious?

Why must it always come down to race? IS it so hard to believe that the police officer at the scene saw they boy with a gun as a threat?

I really hate the media coverage this story is getting. At first it was a "Young boy was shot" today it "A young black afro american was shot". The media are the biggest trolls on earth!