Paying a dealer labour costs for a problem they haven't solved?

There is a similar and common problem in the software development industry - the choice of fixed-price or time and materials. In my experience, fixed-price typically:

1. Involves long lead-times before starting work, while research/investigation is performed in order to quantify the amount of effort required
2. Requires very detailed scope and requirements that are NOT open-ended - it is very rarely "deliver business objective", and usually "deliver X, Y, Z technical items"
3. Turns in to a game of "ah, but that was/was not in this implied term in the specification!"
4. Are either "too cheap to be true" or horrendously expensive due to priced-in risk
5. Doesn't frequently deliver good outcomes for anything remotely complex that isn't planned with such detail and so far in advance it's obsolete by the time of delivery

Time and materials usually works, as:

1. A fair rate for the time of the individuals/teams involved, based on skills/experience required, is established
2. Suppliers are selected based on portfolio, recommendation etc. rather than cheapest price i.e. who underestimated the specification the most
3. Greater flexibility when a change in direction is requested or advised

Now, cars - like software - are complex things. There are tens, sometimes hundreds of potential causes for a particular symptom/fault. For common faults, one could know that the likelihood is that it's 60% cause A, then 20% cause B, then 5% cause C.. then declining returns as you go to cause Z+. A garage could offer fixed priced diagnosis of symptoms and repair of fault based on these likelihoods, as they are reasonably quantifiable, and as regular, the cost to the garage of the extremely difficult to diagnose Z+ cause can be balanced by the 85% of diagnoses ending at C. For rare faults, it's a guess.. a business would need a kind of "repair insurance" policy to mitigate the huge potential financial risk.

The problem comes with the fact that in the parc of 30,000,000 cars in the UK alone, covering tens of thousands of different variants, with thousands of parts each - and in the abscence of any robust data sets giving transparency - it's virtually impossible for all but the most specialised of garages to manage that risk without indemnifying themselves with very high prices. It turns in to a 'socialised' cost of repair. You'd also need to apply such a system universally, or you could pay somebody to diagnose a fault as "really serious", then take it to the garage with fixed price repairs where it's lower than your likely repair cost.. which will push up the price of fixed cost repairs.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for all responses

Have agreed to pick up the car tomorrow with no charge, problem still undiagnosed and unfixed... Then the dealer is going to wait to hear back from the manufacturer about what they think they should do next, and they'll then get back to me
 
I generally find if someone expects you to do something for free. Asking them to reciprocate a similar amount of time for you in what ever is their line of work usually changes their lack of value in someones time.
 
Thanks for all responses

Have agreed to pick up the car tomorrow with no charge, problem still undiagnosed and unfixed... Then the dealer is going to wait to hear back from the manufacturer about what they think they should do next, and they'll then get back to me

Apologies kinda drifted off topic.

You might actually hunt out some independent specialist. They actually might be better than a dealer.
 
My e39 occasionally stalls when going into reverse (it's an auto)I took it to a local garage fir them to have a look and they couldn't identify why it was doing this, he didn't charge me and given he'd not found the fault yet the fault plainly exists, why would he?

I've got its codes read instead - which I can only assume garage bloke didn't attempt! - and it looks like the cam position sensor is u/s, which I'll swap myself.
 
I don't dispute that some garages operate in the way you describe. My point is that it's poor business practice and it contributes towards the reputation the industry has as a whole.

Please also note I've used the term 'you' generally, I don't mean you specifically, I'm talking in general terms.

When your looking for a fault, this takes time and resources too test and eliminate the possible faults that maybe causing the issue. The labour cost is the charge for the service of working on the vehicle regardless of if the fault is found or not.

No, it's not. You might think it is, but it isn't.

Your output is not your labour, your output is the provision of customers with a repaired, serviced or diagnosed vehicle. Your labour is what makes that output happen but it isn't the output itself.

You add value by diagnosing, repairing or servicing the vehicle. This is what you then charge for.

So then you are then paying for a professional tech to try and find the fault.

No, you are paying for a professional tech to *actually* find the fault. The customer can try and find the fault, unsuccessfully, themselves. They don't need a pro to try and work out whats wrong but then fail to do so. That is not what they are paying for.

This is where i was saying its not as straight forward as people often try to make out. faults can take along time to find and sometimes its the case that you learn from the fault finding and some of the costs of the time taken are wavered at a cost to the business.

This is where i was saying that bearing in mind you may of spent hours doing all this work, that as a business you are not going to say " sorry we spent 6 hours looking for the fault and testing out items and components and we cannot find where the issue is happening at this time, so have these 6 hours labour for free on us". Thats not going to happen, there is going to be some charge even if its a few hours or the whole amount that's down the the employer to decided what to do.

But they are getting nothing for free. You've outputted nothing to them, the time you've spent is irrelevant to anyone but the business itself because it ultimately achieved nothing and produced nothing for the customer. They asked for an output - in this case a diagnosis - and you didn't provide that output. Therefore rather than 'giving' the customer something for free you've actually taken something from the customer - you've cost them time and hassle and delivered nothing. Now, the customer isn't entitled to anything as a result, they take the time on the chin, but you can't honestly expect them to pay for what is fundamentally nothing.

Now bearing in mind that this is the service you are charging for and the customer is aware that there is a cost involved in trying to find the issue. its common sense to know that money will be involved as any business is not a charity.

There is a cost involved in FINDING the issue, not TRYING to find the issue. You'd honestly be happy if your PC went wrong and I said 'Hey I can fix PC's!' then I came round your house, spent 6 hours faffing about with your PC and then said 'beats me! £100 please'?

You'd rightly laugh in my face.

Now i understand what people are saying on here, but this is why i was saying that unless you work in the motor trade, or own a business in the motor trade that i really don't think you will understand the whole thing. I have spent 10 years within the industry and its the same as any other trade. Cost's involved are high, people need to pay there bills and overheads etc this is all part of the time taken.

I think what we are realising here is that people who own garages who operate in this way are mechanics not businessmen.

Think how you would feel if it was your business and you were charging for a service and giving away free time.

If it was happening reasonably often I'd want to look at my internal processes and ask myself what's going wrong - why do I have so many cars in my workshop that my staff are not able to diagnose?

You don't even need to give away free time - just cost the time as an overhead and apportion it to the jobs you DO charge for as you would any other overhead like building rates or receptionist charges or whatever.

It's not even hard to do if you record time properly - just look over the previous financial year, work out how many hours were wasted and what this cost, then apportion this cost across the productive hours and you've got how much per hour of your price should be contributing towards wastage. Just like you presumably already do with heating, lighting, business rates and indirect labour costs.
 
Last edited:
I might expect a garage to spend half an hour or so looking into a problem and not have to pay for it.

i wouldn't expect them to spend 4 hours for free though. In most instances they aren't providing nothing. If they test components and run checking procedures they are outputting work by identifying testing parts and systems to ensure they are operating correctly. They are outputting work and using labour time that could be otherwise sold to someone else as man hours in any business are not infinite.

It needs to be agreed clearly up front in terms of how long you want tgem to spend looking and they should try to set realistic expectations and try to incorporate some of the costs of diagnosis against that customer if they are able to fix the issue.
 
That's right up until you to diagnostics for free and the customer then goes and starts fitting parts himself.
So always charge diagnostics assuming you come up with one.

If you don't then I can't see how it is reasonable to charge. However coming up with the wrong diagnoses but something that could still have been wrong is another kettle of fish.
 
Nothing wrong with charging for diagnosis if agreed but you need to actually diagnose something! You can't charge after not being able to diagnose..
 
Well i think the whole thing is just going around in circles now. I understand what people are saying, yet i hope the same people understand what im saying too.

Ill leave my point at that. Even if im right or wrong in what i say there shall always be people that agree and others that think other wise.

Yes you and the other poster have a completely valid point. I think the problem lies in the practice of many of these garages and mechanics. If a customer goes in asking for a fault to be found and fixed but is left with neither outcome and charged for the time then that's just wrong, if however they are told "we will look for the problem but cant guarantee we will find the problem or fix it but we will charge you for the time", I think that is fair in one sense as the customer knows what they are getting.

I remember my dad had an idle issue with his old car some time ago and he went to a few garages neither of them ever found the cause, one of the garage charged £40 for diagnostics and all he did was hook up an obd2 reader and check for the codes! (Something I did already myself, and it was all clear so problem was never solved). It's one reason why decided to maintain my car myself and only leave jobs that I dont have resources for with a garage, saves a lot of hassle and I know I will do things by the book, which a lot of mechanics don't.
 
Well i think the whole thing is just going around in circles now. I understand what people are saying, yet i hope the same people understand what im saying too.

Ill leave my point at that. Even if im right or wrong in what i say there shall always be people that agree and others that think other wise.

I do understand what you're saying, it's basically that it's perfectly fine to be utterly useless at your job and still expect to get paid (not you directly, but the person unable to diagnose the issue).

As Fox has already said, if someone brought me their laptop fix because it was running really slowly, I spent 4 hours looking at it, and gave it back to them in exactly the same state as before and told them I didn't have a clue what was up with it, but that'll be £120 please, they'd laugh at me, and I wouldn't see them again (or get any recommendations).
 
Out of curiosity. An hourly rate is meterage, its a measurement of time no?

No, I was using meterage as a measurement of length.

Hourly rate would be time.

The more meters you can achieve in a day without losing core the more you can make. Nobody pays per hour as it encourages time wasting.
 
But I think the word meterage isn't solely used to measure distance. It can also be used for time. Like parking meters or a time clock at work.
 
Last edited:
But they are getting nothing for free. You've outputted nothing to them, the time you've spent is irrelevant to anyone but the business itself because it ultimately achieved nothing and produced nothing for the customer
You do realise this is basically how the whole professional services market operates (law, accountancy, consultancy..) :D

As the joke goes "You've heard about the man who got the bill from his lawyer, which said: "For crossing the road to speak to you and discovering it was not you: $12" :p

There's plenty of argument about the merits of billing based on outcome/fixed at the outset vs hourly rates though - primarily that the latter is essentially rewarding inefficient work but the former you get shoddy work because once you hit your limit or realise that the job is going to be a ball-ache there no incentive to do any more than the bare minimum so give the rest of the job to the work experience lad on 2 quid an hour :p
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom