Greece Elections

[Schlong&Stable]

I like Greece. I have Greek friends and have visited three times in the last 14 months, so I am pretty worried about their prospects under Syriza. The only good news is that if they tank the Greek economy, at least everyone will see how useless socialism is.

 

[Mr Jack]

This will be interesting times for Europe. At some point the EU needs to develop a more consensual relationship with results from the democratic will of its constituent countries that go against the general narrative; I fear this will not be the day.

The big hope must be that this is the beginning of the end of Europe's disastrous obsession with austerity; however, I doubt the big powers will be willing to see this happen and that leaves open the nightmare scenario of a serial collapse of the Eurozone as first Greece and then the other weaker southern states leave the currency.

Germany's face-spiting refusal to back the Euro properly in the early part of this decade is likely to come back to roost.

 

[Slam62]

This will be interesting times for Europe. At some point the EU needs to develop a more consensual relationship with results from the democratic will of its constituent countries that go against the general narrative; I fear this will not be the day.

The big hope must be that this is the beginning of the end of Europe's disastrous obsession with austerity; however, I doubt the big powers will be willing to see this happen and that leaves open the nightmare scenario of a serial collapse of the Eurozone as first Greece and then the other weaker southern states leave the currency.

Germany's face-spiting refusal to back the Euro properly in the early part of this decade is likely to come back to roost.

You could be right,
Golden Dawn look like coming third.

 

[Strife212]

I like Greece. I have Greek friends and have visited three times in the last 14 months, so I am pretty worried about their prospects under Syriza. The only good news is that if they tank the Greek economy, at least everyone will see how useless socialism is.

Greece already has no economy worth speaking of...

 

[Stretch]

The big hope must be that this is the beginning of the end of Europe's disastrous obsession with austerity; however, I doubt the big powers will be willing to see this happen and that leaves open the nightmare scenario of a serial collapse of the Eurozone as first Greece and then the other weaker southern states leave the currency.

There is austerity in Greece and elsewhere for one simple reason, they haven't got any money, and no one will lend them any.

Greece is about to end austerity by taking a huge dump on its creditors (that's you and me). If the rest of the world followed suit, it would be ww3.

Germany's face-spiting refusal to back the Euro properly in the early part of this decade is likely to come back to roost.

I don't think they'll shed a tear for Greece.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Looks like Syriza have got it.

Good - I'm glad a left alternative to austerity has attracted votes - it'll be interesting to see what happens next.

 

[Dolph]

This will be interesting times for Europe. At some point the EU needs to develop a more consensual relationship with results from the democratic will of its constituent countries that go against the general narrative; I fear this will not be the day.

The big hope must be that this is the beginning of the end of Europe's disastrous obsession with austerity; however, I doubt the big powers will be willing to see this happen and that leaves open the nightmare scenario of a serial collapse of the Eurozone as first Greece and then the other weaker southern states leave the currency.

Germany's face-spiting refusal to back the Euro properly in the early part of this decade is likely to come back to roost.

Should the whole EU be bound by the votes of one country?

The German electorate does not want to back Greece, which democracy matters more?

 

[Slam62]

There is austerity in Greece and elsewhere for one simple reason, they haven't got any money, and no one will lend them any.

Greece is about to end austerity by taking a huge dump on its creditors (that's you and me). If the rest of the world followed suit, it would be ww3.



I don't think they'll shed a tear for Greece.

The world is not short of money or exploitation .

 

[FoxEye]

The world is not short of money or exploitation .

Was watching a programme the other night ("The Super Rich and Us").

It claimed that of all the recently created Quantitative Easing money, 95% of it went straight from the banks to the "super-rich". And that if it had been distributed to all of us, each person would have been given 27k.

Makes you think, esp about "austerity".

 

[Mr Jack]

There is austerity in Greece and elsewhere for one simple reason, they haven't got any money, and no one will lend them any.

Not really; there's this level of austerity in Greece because the Eurozone was badly constituted and lacked the ability to cope with this kind of crisis. Had Greece still had its own central bank it would have been able to find its way out in a more sensible fashion. The big powers of the Eurozone - in particular Germany - who have done very well out of it chose to refuse to back Greece and the Euro in its hour of need or allow the European Central Bank to undertake the necessary measures and, as a result, are still feeling the pain of a crisis they could have ended years ago.

Greece is about to end austerity by taking a huge dump on its creditors (that's you and me). If the rest of the world followed suit, it would be ww3.

No, it won't. No-one is dumb enough to start a war over a default. There may be another Eurocrisis and another unneeded and sharp recession.

I don't think they'll shed a tear for Greece.

They may not but they will continue to suffer the ongoing consequences of their actions and a Grexit will be very bad news for the German economy.

 

[Mr Jack]

Should the whole EU be bound by the votes of one country?

The German electorate does not want to back Greece, which democracy matters more?

I didn't say it was an easy question but there is clearly a serious issue with the EU's response to the democratic will of member states - and its happening in an increasing number of countries whether in ratification treaties or this Greek vote - which needs to be addressed otherwise the European project itself will be threatened by the disillusionment of voters who feel their democratically expressed views are being steamrollered by the EU at large.

(My answer would be to heavily accelerate European federalisation and integration and push powers to the European parliament and thus make the EU directly democratically accountable but there's little or no chance of that happening, is there?)

 

[Dolph]

I didn't say it was an easy question but there is clearly a serious issue with the EU's response to the democratic will of member states - and its happening in an increasing number of countries whether in ratification treaties or this Greek vote - which needs to be addressed otherwise the European project itself will be threatened by the disillusionment of voters who feel their democratically expressed views are being steamrollered by the EU at large.

(My answer would be to heavily accelerate European federalisation and integration and push powers to the European parliament and thus make the EU directly democratically accountable but there's little or no chance of that happening, is there?)

Nothing sounds like more of a nightmare than a federalised Europe unless there are significant controls of the parliament. The EU parliament frequently votes for discriminatory or damaging laws that have no place in a free society.

 

[Slam62]

The EUs QE is to cover any losses, apart from the IMF loans that have gone.

 

[Duke]

Has Greece carried out any reforms to its public sector yet?

 

[Strife212]

Has Greece carried out any reforms to its public sector yet?

Yes? It's eviscerated almost everything. Like, not UK style "austerity" but full on gutting everything.

 

[Strife212]

TAXATION

Taxes will increase by 2.32bn euros this year, with additional taxes of 3.38bn euros in 2012, 152m euros in 2013 and 699m euros in 2014.
A solidarity levy of between 1% and 5% of income will be levied on households to raise 1.38bn euros.
The tax-free threshold for income tax will be lowered from 12,000 to 8,000 euros.
There will be higher property taxes
VAT rates are to rise: the 19% rate will increase to 23%, 11% becomes 13%, and 5.5% will increase to 6.5%.
The VAT rate for restaurants and bars will rise to 23% from 13%.
Luxury levies will be introduced on yachts, pools and cars.
Some tax exemptions will be scrapped
Excise taxes on fuel, cigarettes and alcohol will rise by one third.
Special levies on profitable firms, high-value properties and people with high incomes will be introduced.

PUBLIC SECTOR CUTS

The public sector wage bill will be cut by 770m euros in 2011, 600m euros in 2012, 448m euros in 2013, 300m euros in 2014 and 71m euros in 2015.
Nominal public sector wages will be cut by 15%.
Wages of employees of state-owned enterprises will be cut by 30% and there will be a cap on wages and bonuses.
All temporary contracts for public sector workers will be terminated.
Only one in 10 civil servants retiring this year will be replaced and only one in 5 in coming years.

SPENDING CUTS

Defence spending will be cut by 200m euros in 2012, and by 333m euros each year from 2013 to 2015.
Health spending will be cut by 310m euros this year and a further 1.81bn euros in 2012-2015, mainly by lowering regulated prices for drugs.
Public investment will be cut by 850m euros this year.
Subsidies for local government will be reduced.
Education spending will be cut by closing or merging 1,976 schools.

CUTTING BENEFITS

Social security will be cut by 1.09bn euros this year, 1.28bn euros in 2012, 1.03bn euros in 2013, 1.01bn euros in 2014 and 700m euros in 2015.
There will be more means-testing and some benefits will be cut.
The government hopes to collect more social security contributions by cracking down on evasion and undeclared work.
The statutory retirement age will be raised to 65, 40 years of work will be needed for a full pension and benefits will be linked more closely to lifetime contributions.

PRIVATISATION

The government aims to raise 50bn euros from privatisations by 2015, including:
Selling stakes this year in the betting monopoly OPAP, the lender Hellenic Postbank, port operators Piraeus Port and Thessaloniki Port as well as Thessaloniki Water.
It has agreed to sell 10% of Hellenic Telecom to Deutsche Telekom for about 400m euros.
Next year, the government plans to sell stakes in Athens Water, refiner Hellenic Petroleum, electricity utility PPC, lender ATEbank as well as ports, airports, motorway concessions, state land and mining rights.
It plans further sales to raise 7bn euros in 2013, 13bn euros in 2014 and 15bn euros in 2015.

 

[Uther]

Interesting times ahead I think.

 

[robgmun]

Looks like Syriza have got it.

Good - I'm glad a left alternative to austerity has attracted votes - it'll be interesting to see what happens next.

It'll fall to pieces in a spectacular fashion, and yet the left will carry on think its the right course of action.

 

[Mynight]

Is there an alternative to austerity when you're in debt?

Regardless of what happens I just hope the public of Greece are better off for it.

 

[Stretch]

Not really; there's this level of austerity in Greece because the Eurozone was badly constituted and lacked the ability to cope with this kind of crisis. Had Greece still had its own central bank it would have been able to find its way out in a more sensible fashion. The big powers of the Eurozone - in particular Germany - who have done very well out of it chose to refuse to back Greece and the Euro in its hour of need or allow the European Central Bank to undertake the necessary measures and, as a result, are still feeling the pain of a crisis they could have ended years ago.

They knew what they were agreeing too. The situation is far from perfect, hence why many countries were reluctant to sign up.

The eurozone did save Greece from bankruptcy, but there were conditions. The Greek economy needs substantial reform if it's ever going to make its way as a member of the Eurozone. If it can't make the changes, they'll just stagger from crisis to crisis. There is no point in supporting Greece without reform.

No, it won't. No-one is dumb enough to start a war over a default. There may be another Eurocrisis and another unneeded and sharp recession.

If every country took the same approach as Greece, the fallout would be far worse than a "sharp rescission".

Is there an alternative to austerity when you're in debt?

Yes, theft.