Cold Fusion Race just heated up.

StriderX said:
In a turd such as Venezuela...id rather ire on some caution to be honest.
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The increase in reserves in 2010 was due to it being deemed feasible to extract oil from the Orinoco belt. It's not just Venuzuela saying it. Oil extraction processes are being improved, so it is not just plausible but expected for oil previously deemed unrecoverable to become deemed recoverable.

Regardless the issue is that we, cannot actually use most of the oil anyway...so its a battle for self sufficiency and kicking OPEC in the ayatollah.
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That's true. Regardless of how much longer we can use oil and gas, we'd be better off not being so dependent on foreign sources, many of which are hostile to us and some of which are funding terrorism. Fusion would be of enormous benefit to us...which is why I think we should increase funding to ITER since there's plenty of evidence that it works. Unlike Rossi's magic box.
 
Fuzz said:
If science had taught you anything it should have taught you to be open minded.
Rather than just running to default "it's a con" mode.
Lets PROVE it is a con first!
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Let's pick a much better example of science working with an impossible result: the "neutrinos travelling faster than light" episode of a couple of years ago. The Italian team did not seal their kit in a box and demand that no-one open it. They didn't ask people to invest. Instead, they worked as proper scientists: they said there was an odd result, and here is absolutely everything you need to work out what is going on: data, setup, what they'd looked at already. Everything. All there out in the open. That is how proper science works.

In science, if you are hiding something then a) it's not science, and b) you have something to hide.
 
mcast said:
Why is this nonsense still being circulated on ocuk?

Shame on you OP.
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What? I was browsing through Flip board when this came up on Wired. Knowing this had previously been discussed/argued about on OCUK, I merely presented what appeared to be the latest update/refresh regarding the saga: flippant or otherwise. You'll note it was placed GD not Speakers Corner :rolleyes: ?
 
Glaucus said:
Via heat, cold fusion just means near room temp, rather than in the millions of C at the centre of stars.
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yeah how exactly are you going to say make steam to spin turbines with only near room temp?

i suppose a Stirling engine could work but it would hardly be a lot of power would it?
 
Tefal said:
the turk worked to, you think the guy invented a robot?
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It is explicitly claimed to be generating energy through a nuclear reaction and generating far more energy than is put into it. So "works" refers to it doing that. If it does that, it works. If it doesn't do that, it doesn't work.

Your comparison isn't comparable because the Turk didn't work as a robot. The fact that it worked as a way of playing chess is irrelevant. If the stated criterion is that the Turk is a robot, then the Turk did not work.
 
arknor said:
all opec countries lie about their reserves they never go down year after year, the more they claim to have the more they are allowed to pump each year ;)

around 2007 Venezuela tripled their reserves from 100million barrels to 300 million barrels and they are not the only country to lie
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Most IOCs have the same thing too - our production/reserves ratio for example has always gone up. This is because it is linked to economically-viable, proved reserves - the bell curve shifts as the price of oil changes and technology moves forward, allowing us to extract more of the oil available in the field. Look at how the North Sea keeps producing - we've produced quite a bit more than was originally given in 'reserves' in the 70s/80s. Some of the fields out in the NS have very impressive recovery rates through good design and new technology making extra reserves available in the current field.
 
Eurofighter said:
Fusion works by fusing atoms together. That creates heat which generates electricity. Cold fusion is a load of ****.
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"cold" is a relative term. In the context of fusion, it refers to temperatures of hundreds of degrees.

Considering that the only fusion known to exist on Earth takes place at temperatures in excess of 100 million degrees, several hundred degrees is very cold for it.

The big issue with cold fusion is how it could happen, not that "cold" is a relative term. The particles must come close enough for the extremely short-ranged strong force to come into play and fuse them. The electromagnetic force repels them long before they're close enough for that to happen. How could it be overcome at a few hundred degrees? Or a few million degrees.

"No idea, but it works" would be a fair answer if there was enough evidence that it did work. Which could be obtained by giving working boxes to wholly independent labs for testing. If the boxes worked, it would be very clear. The highly radioactive copper that would be produced by the reactions that Rossi is claiming happens would be a pretty obvious giveaway for starters, but even if there wasn't any (somehow) the amount of energy would be an obvious giveaway because it would be whole orders of magnitude greater than any chemical reaction could produce. It would be very easy to test.
 
Angilion said:
"cold" is a relative term. In the context of fusion, it refers to temperatures of hundreds of degrees.

Considering that the only fusion known to exist on Earth takes place at temperatures in excess of 100 million degrees, several hundred degrees is very cold for it.

The big issue with cold fusion is how it could happen, not that "cold" is a relative term. The particles must come close enough for the extremely short-ranged strong force to come into play and fuse them. The electromagnetic force repels them long before they're close enough for that to happen. How could it be overcome at a few hundred degrees? Or a few million degrees.

"No idea, but it works" would be a fair answer if there was enough evidence that it did work. Which could be obtained by giving working boxes to wholly independent labs for testing. If the boxes worked, it would be very clear. The highly radioactive copper that would be produced by the reactions that Rossi is claiming happens would be a pretty obvious giveaway for starters, but even if there wasn't any (somehow) the amount of energy would be an obvious giveaway because it would be whole orders of magnitude greater than any chemical reaction could produce. It would be very easy to test.
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The only way to really get a grasp of cold fusion would probably be to know exactly how the Strong force works and somehow...change it within a system to work at longer ranges, though this is obviously well beyond us. (for now)
 
Angilion said:
It is explicitly claimed to be generating energy through a nuclear reaction and generating far more energy than is put into it. So "works" refers to it doing that. If it does that, it works. If it doesn't do that, it doesn't work.

Your comparison isn't comparable because the Turk didn't work as a robot. The fact that it worked as a way of playing chess is irrelevant. If the stated criterion is that the Turk is a robot, then the Turk did not work.
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no people were told the turk was a robot and it worked without a persons control.

secrelty there was a man hidden inside


in this people are people told it is generating energy via a nuclear reaction and more energy comes out than goes in, but they haven't looked inside haven't had reaction products to study it could simply be large battery or capacitor hidden inside just like the man in the turk.


the mturk played chess like it claimed to

this outpts energy like it claims to


untill you look inside though youcant take the creators word
 
Tefal said:
no people were told the turk was a robot and it worked without a persons control.

secrelty there was a man hidden inside
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There was some pretence. Same as there is with illusions today. It's part of the entertainment.

But that's not the point I'm making. You can carry on arguing both sides about that if you like, but I'm not getting involved. Nobody is arguing against you.

I'll repeat myself just in case anyone is unsure what I'm saying.

In general:

If something does what it is claimed to do, it works.

If something does not do what it is claimed to do, it does not work.

In this specific case:

If Rossi's box generates large amounts of energy by nuclear reactions, it works.

If Rossi's box does not generate large amounts of energy by nuclear reactions, it does not work.

If it generates energy in some other way, it does not work.

What parts of that do you disagree with?

untill you look inside though youcant take the creators word
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Who's saying you should? I'm certainly not. I've said the opposite, repeatedly and clearly.
 
Wired have produced another update to this and there is supposed to a video or live stream of one of the critical reactions. I can't link as I'm trudging around the Isle of Skye at the moment doing some photography. The Wired report States that one of Rossi's critics is now trying to replicate the latest experiment.
 
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-02/06/cold-fusion-reactor

An attempt by the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project to replicate E-Cat, Andrea Rossi's alleged cold fusion reactor, ended explosively yesterday after the reactor heated to over 1,000C.

The MFMP is a group dedicated to co-operative, open-source research into cold fusion. Because the effects tend to be so small, much of the work has been on calorimetry (the science of measuring heat) and calibration to ensure that any excess heat is real. However, MFMP's Project Dog Bone is aiming at something bigger, producing large amounts of excess heat as claimed by Rossi, professor Alexander Parkhomov of Lomonosov Moscow State University and independent US researcher Jack Cole.

In line with their approach of carrying out all the research as publicly as possible, the experiment was shown on a live video feed. The reactor can be seen cracking apart with a loud bang three hours 47 minutes into the embedded video.

Fortunately, the experimenters noticed the temperature rise, and put up a blast shield in the minute before the explosion. The soundtrack records the experimenters' surprised and excited responses to the blast:

"That was exciting!"

"Did you hear it?!"

"Was the shield a good idea?"

"The shield was a good idea!" (Laughter)

"Oh mama!... we have no silicon carbide element, and we have a vapourised reactor..."

"So... was that a runaway reaction? Are we in the domain of Parkhomov?"
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Well, we may finally start to get some evidence of something or nothing. That would take it out of the realm of magic and into the realm of science.

But...a runaway fusion reaction with no radiation of any kind other than heat? A runaway fusion reaction is not a minor thing. Although I suppose that since this is claimed to be a completely unknown reaction that doesn't match current understanding of anything, all bets are off.
 
Angilion said:
Well, we may finally start to get some evidence of something or nothing. That would take it out of the realm of magic and into the realm of science.

But...a runaway fusion reaction with no radiation of any kind other than heat? A runaway fusion reaction is not a minor thing. Although I suppose that since this is claimed to be a completely unknown reaction that doesn't match current understanding of anything, all bets are off.
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As far as I can tell, they were pumping water through a block containing LithAl. Overheating is pretty much what you'd expect. Rossi is still lying, and this is still a con.
 
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