HSBC scandal.

jl10000 said:
Not at all, considering HSBC launder billions for Hezbollah and the Mexican drug cartel.
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I think the onus in that particular case is more on HMRC than it is on HSBC and their obvious failure to prosecute. I'm self-employed and I highly doubt I could get away without paying tax for 24 years without some kind legal intervention from HMRC. The difference between that bloke and me is the kind of accountants, legal and banking services we can afford.
 
elmarko said:
It's a good thing laws can change then isn't it.

Many loopholes are legal as a matter of technicality & go against the intended spirit of the law. Ethically & morally they are comparable as they both have the same end result for society.

Besides, in the case of this as mentioned earlier this is stated as tax evasion (also on the BBC website)

"Firstly, that he offered information in 2010 to UK authorities that HSBC was involved in aiding and abetting tax evasion for its clients."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31433674
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You are suggesting that things that have similar end results are comparable.

They aren't. Tax avoidance is not comparable to benefit fraud. Saving your money and being very frugal has somewhat of the same effect, as you aren't contributing to the economy if you're not spending the money you earn.

So is that also wrong? Are rich people obligated to spend their riches?

There are no morals in taxation.
 
Zbornak said:
I'm self-employed and I highly doubt I could get away without paying tax for 24 years without some kind legal intervention from HMRC. The difference between that bloke and me is the kind of accountants, legal and banking services we can afford.
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That is when the anger comes, HMRC would crush you and me or any other small and medium business.

Two tier legal system, we're not in the big club.

Nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care...
 
The Geezer said:
Only 1 prosecution in the 12 months that HMRC have known.

The others are in the process of re-paying their liabilities although tax evasion is illegal wonder how many of us would be treated so favourably by the law ?
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Put them in jail and get nothing. Let them off the hook, collect millions of pounds. It's quite a simple decision in my eyes.
 
Lots of people seem to be confusing avoidance and evasion in this thread. Nonetheless I really don't see why we're not cracking down on this more, investing in cracking down on tax evasion ought to bring in significant revenue.
 
estebanrey said:
But you are the one who initially implied it was black and white and as a result incomparable to benefit fraud.
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THAT is black and white.

You now acknowledge there are many shades of grey, as there are with benefit fraud, so do you regard someone setting up very complex banking and payment systems for themselves or investing in 'schemes' which clearly have nothing to do with their profession with the sole intention of avoiding tax as 'completely different' (morality-wise) to someone with a bad back overstating their symptoms a bit because they're worried they won't get through the ATOS interview otherwise?
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Shades of grey with regards to a different matter. Tax avoidance comes in many forms, benefit fraud typically doesn't in that benefits are being obtained fraudulently.

Morality does not come in to it. There should not be any moral obligations to do something specific with the money you are earning. The financial system isn't ruled by morals.

Someone with a bad back overstating how bad their back is isn't going to be working a manual labouring job, that's a poor example.

To say morality doesn't come into tax avoidance and trying to reducing it to "well if it's technically legal it would be wrong to criticise it" is asinine. As they say, farting in a crowded lift isn't illegal but that doesn't make it an OK thing to do.
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Tax avoidance isn't "technically legal", it's legal. There is no technically about it. The reason people are criticised for criticising it is simply because they usually don't have a clue what they're talking about or their arguments are highly emotionally charged.

Farting in a crowded lift isn't okay, but that's because illegal and wrong aren't synonyms. The same as legal and right. This is just something tacked on in an attempt to make a point just because both statements are made in the same sentence.
 
Uther said:
I suspect a lot of people in this thread are legally 'avoiding' tax.
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It depends on what methods you mean and what you class as avoidance. I actually suspect that most registered users on this forum are PAYE and haven't had the opportunity to avoid tax!
 
Zbornak said:
It depends on what methods you mean and what you class as avoidance. I actually suspect that most registered users on this forum are PAYE and haven't had the opportunity to avoid tax!
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As Jokester has already said, there's pensions, ISAs, duty free, people doing deals to buy houses that are above the threshold for stamp duty so they pay the lower rate, gifting early as part of inheritance, charitable giving, childcare vouchers etc. are all ways available to someone on PAYE to avoid tax
 
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One said:
Put them in jail and get nothing. Let them off the hook, collect millions of pounds. It's quite a simple decision in my eyes.
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Should we let murderers off if they pay a large fine? It costs a lot of money to keep people in jail, after all.
 
Jokester said:
ISAs, pensions etc are all methods to avoid tax, so I suspect anyone with a job is doing so.
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Bear said:
As Jokester has already said, there's pensions, ISAs, duty free, people doing deals to buy houses that are above the threshold for stamp duty so they pay the lower rate, gifting early as part of inheritance, charitable giving, childcare vouchers etc. are all ways available to someone on PAYE to avoid tax
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I personally wouldn't call most, if not all, of those "avoiding tax" despite being so in the most technical sense. I don't see the world of tax as that black and white.

I'd class avoiding tax as a legal activity that are the unintended consequences of gaps in tax legislation that is capitilised upon by people who have access to specialist knowledge and organisations. For example, locating yourself in tax havens, investing in vehicles with a very limited tax liability and exaggerated accounting entries which are blamed on ignorance.

I doubt that's what it says in the dictionary, but that's my view!
 
Gifting your children's inheritance only serves one purpose and that is to avoid tax. Just because you haven't hired an accountant to "fiddle" it does not make it not so.

Likewise with those who "sell" their house to their children for £1.
 
Tunney said:
Both are criminal offences. Why should one person be let off for economic reasons but not another?
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Speeding is also a criminal offence...

Just think for a moment why murderers are incarcerated over other matters that are criminal offences. It's not difficult to understand.
 
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