Q4 2014 - nvidia gain market share again

[Gregster]

Anyone who buys high end clearly doesn't care at all about VFM. The VFM argument only holds true at some 100-150 price point at the most, then it becomes fairly pointless to consider.

There are also many ways you can influence VFM anyway, buy cards second hand for starters.

Very true.

 

[melvis]

As Mayh3M points out, AMD at the lower end may give you more FPS for a pound but there is more to it than that. Linux drivers is just one example, getting Gsync well ahead of Freesync coming into an existence is another, enjoying PhysX in games is another, or having cooler quieter smaller cards, or consistently better developer support, being able to use CUDA as well an openCL etc.

ive put AMD cards in most peoples PC's i built over the last 3-4 years and theyve been perfectly fine drivers and all under windows

gsync is a nice to have but physx is a waste of space, and outside scientific computing cuda is just a curiosity
that said though, i run linux a lot of the time and had such a crappy time with the 7850 that i DSR'ed it and got a 670, though i gather they have improved a large amount since the steambox talk started.

also smaller cards is a big thing for me, unless amd can do something in the heat/size department my next card will probably be nvidia too

 

[Pottsey]

erm, based on what exactly?

obviously, going from a world where EVERY PC had an add in board, to one where the vast majority of non-gamers make do with an APU is going to affect gross numbers, however to put this in to perspective, the peak of GPU board sales was in 1999 at 114 million units, Nvidia's gross revenue that year was $158 million and a profit of $4m... last year it was $4 BILLION and hundreds of millions profit

Imagination technologies revenue is, what, $170m?
Market share in a razor thin margins area like phones is clearly worth going after...

My comments have nothing to do with Imagination technologies and you cannot compare an IP company like Imagination technologies who do not sell products to a company who sell products. Completely different types of companies. Also phones and mobiles have massive margins that’s why the Apple is the largest company in the world.

What I found interesting is that the none desktop GPU market grow so large and the desktop market (both discreet and APU) shrank so much that in the last year alone the total none desktop GPU shipment was bigger in 1 year then the entire history of 15 years+ of both discreet and APU desktop GPU sales.

AMD and NVidia went from being over 90% of the world’s GPU’s too well under 10%. I didn’t realize just how much the world had changed until I read those updated numbers. Talk about GPU's going widespread.

 

[Pottsey]

oh, I remember that loon. Aren't smartphones supposed to be 1000x more powerful graphically than a discrete PC GPU by now

Well it turned out I wasn’t a loon and was correct. Mobile is clearly in the transition towards real time hardware ray tracing which will allow mobiles to pull of graphics that discreet PC GPU cannot dream off. Unless AMD or NVidia bother to add ray tracing to the desktop GPU then we will end up in a crazy situation with mobiles having certain graphics being much better then desktops. So far there is no sign of AMD or NVidia doing real time hardware ray tracing. But that’s a topic for another thread. I don’t want to derail this thread to talking about ray tracing. So if you want to discuss it please start a new thread.

 

[Mayh3M]

For people who believe the gap between AMD and Nvidia is not as large as its made out to be in terms of the overall package their selling, how do you explain the trend in the graph? Is it really a case of irrational consumers and brand loyalty? If consumers are as simplistic as they're made out to be, surely they would always opt for the lower cost solution given the performance numbers are the same? I think their decision making has more substance than that.

 

[Gregster]

My comments have nothing to do with Imagination technologies and you cannot compare an IP company like Imagination technologies who do not sell products to a company who sell products. Completely different types of companies. Also phones and mobiles have massive margins that’s why the Apple is the largest company in the world.

What I found interesting is that the none desktop GPU market grow so large and the desktop market (both discreet and APU) shrank so much that in the last year alone the total none desktop GPU shipment was bigger in 1 year then the entire history of (both discreet and APU) desktop GPU sales.

AMD and NVidia went from being over 90% of the world’s GPU’s too well under 10%. I didn’t realize just how much the world had changed until I read those updated numbers. Talk about GPU's going widespread.

Well it turned out I wasn’t a loon and was correct. Mobile is clearly in the transition towards real time hardware ray tracing which will allow mobiles to pull of graphics that discreet PC GPU cannot dream off. Unless AMD or NVidia bother to add ray tracing to the desktop GPU then we will end up in a crazy situation with mobiles having certain graphics being much better then desktops. So far there is no sign of AMD or NVidia doing real time hardware ray tracing. But that’s a topic for another thread. I don’t want to derail this thread to talking about ray tracing. So if you want to discuss it please start a new thread.

lol

 

[Pottsey]

lol

What’s so funny? You underline two statements that are correct and laughed?

 

[Gregster]

For people who believe the gap between AMD and Nvidia is not as large as its made out to be in terms of the overall package their selling, how do you explain the trend in the graph? Is it really a case of irrational consumers and brand loyalty? If consumers are as simplistic as they're made out to be, surely they would always opt for the lower cost solution given the performance numbers are the same? I think their decision making has more substance than that.

When you take the power and heat of the 290/X and take into account that AMD said it was designed to run at 95c, that must have put a few people off. Then you look recently to what is out and AMD have nothing new out and people like new toys, then you look at AMD's recent cut-backs and you can see that things are starting to suffer. The last drivers were out in early December and there has been some decent games released between now and then and we are now almost closing on February.... That is a long time between drivers and more importantly, game optimisations/crossfire profiles.

As much as I want to see AMD do well, this isn't painting a pretty picture for the future.

What’s so funny? You underline two statements that are correct and laughed?

You don't mention it but then you mention it...If you can't see the irony!

 

[Pottsey]

You don't mention it but then you mention it...If you can't see the irony!

Nope I don’t see the irony. I wasn’t talking about Imagination technologies but the desktop and none desktop GPU’s and how the GPU world has changed so much with NVidia going from 1st to 5th in total market share.

 

[Gregster]

Nope I don’t see the irony. I wasn’t talking about Imagination technologies but the desktop and none desktop GPU’s and how the GPU world has changed so much with NVidia going from 1st to 5th in total market share.

Andy has already told you what revenue was and is.... Surely you can see how well nVidia are doing now to how well they were doing back then? And you always bring Raytracing into every thread.

 

[gpuerrilla]

Greg, when did you last buy an AMD/ATi card?

 

[bru]

People go on about Value For Money, as has been said already it is purely subjective to the individual. You cannot put a price point on it, of course you can say what you think is value for money as each and every one of us will have a differing opinions. For example it could be said that any discrete GPU is too expensive because 90% of people don't need them, as most CPU's have a built in GPU. Two Titan Z's could be an absolute bargain for the someone who needs them. A mars bar for 60p is a rip off but compared to the shop selling three packs for £2.40, all of a sudden its seems like good VFM.
It is all purely subjective to the individual.

 

[Final8y]

When you take the power and heat of the 290/X and take into account that AMD said it was designed to run at 95c, that must have put a few people off. Then you look recently to what is out and AMD have nothing new out and people like new toys, then you look at AMD's recent cut-backs and you can see that things are starting to suffer. The last drivers were out in early December and there has been some decent games released between now and then and we are now almost closing on February.... That is a long time between drivers and more importantly, game optimisations/crossfire profiles.

As much as I want to see AMD do well, this isn't painting a pretty picture for the future.



You don't mention it but then you mention it...If you can't see the irony!

Decent games, clearly you have very low standards.
As for the cuts backs already effecting the drivers delay, may have some weight if it was not for the fact that this driver is not the run of the mill driver with trying to add new features and trying to improve on the new features that was released just one driver before, PLP Eyefinity, VSR, Freesync, DFRC which didn't even enter your mind into possible delay reasons.

You wanting AMD to do well wont wash as you cant help having a dig at them and stirring the pot at every opportunity, Adiós

 

[Ian Evey]

People go on about Value For Money, as has been said already it is purely subjective to the individual. You cannot put a price point on it, of course you can say what you think is value for money as each and every one of us will have a differing opinions. For example it could be said that any discrete GPU is too expensive because 90% of people don't need them, as most CPU's have a built in GPU. Two Titan Z's could be an absolute bargain for the someone who needs them. A mars bar for 60p is a rip off but compared to the shop selling three packs for £2.40, all of a sudden its seems like good VFM.
It is all purely subjective to the individual.

3 Mars bars for £2.40! Get me some of those. 60p ones are probably cheap imports from Uzbekistan.

 

[Mayh3M]

People go on about Value For Money, as has been said already it is purely subjective to the individual. You cannot put a price point on it, of course you can say what you think is value for money as each and every one of us will have a differing opinions. For example it could be said that any discrete GPU is too expensive because 90% of people don't need them, as most CPU's have a built in GPU. Two Titan Z's could be an absolute bargain for the someone who needs them. A mars bar for 60p is a rip off but compared to the shop selling three packs for £2.40, all of a sudden its seems like good VFM.
It is all purely subjective to the individual.

Absolutely agree.

My GTX 980 provides far more value for money than a R9 290X because of its increased performance, much lower heat output, and much lower noise, the last two being extremely important TO ME, hence why the card offers proportionately more value to me than another consumer.

What we can say is that when a consumer chooses to buy a GPU, or anything for that matter, they feel that specific choice is providing them with the best value for money, given their preferences and priorities. So in other words most GPU consumers find that Nvidia provides them with better value for money, and increasingly so. This is precisely why AMD should focus on factors other than raw performance.

 

[Gregster]

Decent games, clearly you have very low standards.
As for the cuts backs already effecting the drivers delay, may have some weight if it was not for the fact that this driver is not the run of the mill driver with trying to add new features and trying to improve on the new features that was released just one driver before, PLP Eyefinity, VSR, Freesync, DFRC which didn't even enter your mind into possible delay reasons.

You wanting AMD to do well wont wash as you cant help having a dig at them and stirring the pot at every opportunity, Adiós

Unsurprising that you won't have a bad word said against AMD and good defending. I hope it works out well in the end.

Greg, when did you last buy an AMD/ATi card?

Why? And what has that got to do with any relevancy?

 

[Final8y]

Unsurprising that you won't have a bad word said against AMD and good defending. I hope it works out well in the end.

There are plenty of bad words and criticism said against AMD that dont bother me at all because there is or is some or partial justification or i would have a bigger post count than you.

 

[Pottsey]

Andy has already told you what revenue was and is.... Surely you can see how well nVidia are doing now to how well they were doing back then? And you always bring Raytracing into every thread.

I do not deny NVidia are doing well. I was just pointing out how the markets have changed and some interesting numbers in how the GPU market ratios have swapped over.

As for Ray tracing I only brought that up to defend myself when I was called a loon. If he didn’t make fun of my valid comments I never would have bought it up. Its not my fault others keep bringing up the same subjects every time they see me.

 

[FoxEye]

People go on about Value For Money, as has been said already it is purely subjective to the individual. You cannot put a price point on it, of course you can say what you think is value for money as each and every one of us will have a differing opinions. For example it could be said that any discrete GPU is too expensive because 90% of people don't need them, as most CPU's have a built in GPU. Two Titan Z's could be an absolute bargain for the someone who needs them. A mars bar for 60p is a rip off but compared to the shop selling three packs for £2.40, all of a sudden its seems like good VFM.
It is all purely subjective to the individual.

Shall we just talk about performance/£ then? I never thought so many people would disagree on what "VFM" means.

I still disagree that there is an "AMD bias" on this forum.

Many posters like myself give both nV and AMD a hard time, because they both deserve it. nV for being outrageously expensive, and for badging what should have been low/mid range cards as mid/high end.

AMD also get stick from me for their endless rebrands, and having not released anything exciting in the mid-range for 3-4 years now.

Where is the AMD bias, exactly? Many of the most frequent posters here make no secret that they are flying the green flag of nVidia.

 

[Final8y]

Absolutely agree.

My GTX 980 provides far more value for money than a R9 290X because of its increased performance, much lower heat output, and much lower noise, the last two being extremely important TO ME, hence why the card offers proportionately more value to me than another consumer.

What we can say is that when a consumer chooses to buy a GPU, or anything for that matter, they feel that specific choice is providing them with the best value for money, given their preferences and priorities. So in other words most GPU consumers find that Nvidia provides them with better value for money, and increasingly so. This is precisely why AMD should focus on factors other than raw performance.

Value has a price factor as well and the features (besides noise because there are other 290x besides reference cooled that are just as quiet as some 980) you are mentioning used to be the opposite when it came to AMD and NV which makes the general justification flawed as people still went with NV because of the raw performance in spite of the heat power draw being greater.

Spoiler

Its more like which ever way the NV wind blows.

Now peoples priorities can change over time and if AMD do equal or beat NV in power to performance ratio lets see how many people put there money where there mouth is or will there priorities conveniently change again to whatever NV are at the time again and will very like be well this feature is more important to me than those other factors which is fair enough but then that should have been the emphasis in the first place and not a change of tune when it suited.