Netanyahu: Iran a threat to the world.

[Xordium]

All those i mentioned were dead people, so why ask me to ask dead people ?

Sorry, I read it as raped ... as in not murdered - wasn't clear to me on first reading.

So can we accept that not many people are murdered and most die from natural causes and therefore god didn't fail that many.

Alternatively you could do as I said and ask someone who had a bad event who states god helped them at that time and then find your answer.

Good night to you too. That's all my tabs done now!

 

[jmc007]

But why should I care what some ancient book says ?

The world is full of many books.

Harry Potter for example has wizards.

Lord of the Rings has hobbits.

Should I believe these ?

Obviously not as Gospel.

Do you really think that you are smarter than all the millions of people who have willingly gone to their deaths for their witness of Christ?

 

[Castiel]

You are correct that we do not know what comes after but his example was of God helping through troubles in his lifetime. my question is does God actually help in peoples lifetime ?
Surely with all the bad things happening it would appear he just lets us get on with it ...if he exists ofc.

The concept of freewill, we can either accept God help or not..I suspect that would be the perspective of jmc007.

I really do not know...I do know that at times in my own life, certain things I have experienced make me question my own beliefs, or rather the lack of them and sometimes I wonder and even perhaps hope...I don't know, I am not really explaining this very well.

 

[Danthus]

Obviously not as Gospel.

Do you really think that you are smarter than all the millions of people who have willingly gone to their deaths for their witness of Christ?

Yeah.

 

[Sliver]

Obviously not as Gospel.

So I shouldn't take as gospel, Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter, but you think I should take as gospel, the Bible. Tell me why ?

 

[Danthus]

Religion is his crutch, take it away and he is done for.

 

[Sliver]

I really do not know...I do know that at times in my own life, certain things I have experienced make me question my own beliefs, or rather the lack of them and sometimes I wonder and even perhaps hope...I don't know, I am not really explaining this very well.

You're not alone. I have had these thoughts too. But they soon pass. We all doubt ourselves no matter how strong our beliefs. Mother Teresa wrote a letter to her church admitting her loss of faith, and she is apparently the epitome of faith. Here's a quote:

"Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear," she wrote the Rev. Michael van der Peet in September 1979.

 

[jmc007]

So I shouldn't take as gospel, Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter, but you think I should take as gospel, the Bible. Tell me why ?

Because it is the truth.

What do you make of this Silver?

Quoted from the Bible some preceding lines to 3:16 in the Gospel of John.

3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[Castiel]

You cannot compare Harry Potter to The Bible. Harry Potter is a known work of someone's stated imagination. We have no ambiguity as to its authorship or intent. The Bible is different...it is more akin to reading the Memoirs of Hitchens and finding some meaning in them from his perspective..or reading the teachings of a scholar and learning from them.

The intent and context of a text is important, to compare the Bible to fiction without acknowledging that was never the intent of the autors or compilers of The texts that make up the Bible (even though some of them are indeed contextually fiction as an example such as the Parables)..to dismiss the bible as being no different to Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings is not a rational psotion to take. The rational position is to treat any textual criticism of the Bible, be it in the meaning or the literal word, in the context of the intent of the authors.

 

[Danthus]

How do you know what the intentions of the authors of the Bible were?

 

[Sliver]

You cannot compare Harry Potter to The Bible. Harry Potter is a known work of someone's stated imagination. We have no ambiguity as to its authorship or intent. The Bible is different...it is more akin to reading the Memoirs of Hitchens and finding some meaning in them from his perspective..or reading the teachings of a scholar and learning from them.

The intent and context of a text is important, to compare the Bible to fiction without acknowledging that was never the intent of the autors or compilers of The texts that make up the Bible (even though some of them are indeed contextually fiction as an example such as the Parables)..to dismiss the bible as being no different to Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings is not a rational psotion to take. The rational position is to treat any textual criticism of the Bible, be it in the meaning or the literal word, in the context of the intent of the authors.

Can I compare it the Iliad and Odyssey then ? Can I compare Jesus or Moses to Socrates ? Tell me a good analogy and I'll use it.

 

[Castiel]

How do you know what the intentions of the authors of the Bible were?

We know by the texts themselves that the intent was to teach a message, we know from the compilers of The Bible that the message dictated the choices of the texts which formed the Bible...the context is one of teaching a message of the relationship of God with his creation.

Now we do not have to believe in this message or accept it or whatever..but when we do need to treat it in a specific way when we investigate it from a textual analysis and critical way. To treat it in any other way would mean that any criticism would be biased and tainted and totally unscientific.

 

[Sliver]

Because it is the truth.

What do you make of this Silver?

Spoiler

Quoted from the Bible some preceding lines to 3:16 in the Gospel of John.

3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Trying to use the bible which is the claim of god as proof of god is circular reasoning, also known as begging the question. Here's a pretty picture to help you understand the fallacy.

 

[Castiel]

Can I compare it the Iliad and Odyssey then ? Can I compare Jesus or Moses to Socrates ? Tell me a good analogy and I'll use it.

Why would you want to?

I would treat the Iliad and The Odyssey as they are written. I would approach them as epic poems that may have been partially based on historical events or at the least, have been based on oral tradition. The way I would treat looking a the texts of the Bible...I wouldn't approach a textual criticism of Genesis in the same way as I would a textual Criticism of the Epistles of Paul, as the intent and content is different.

I would not compare the texts are they are not directly comparable..other than perhaps if the language within gave us insight into the languages and translations therin..but then that is a slightly different discipline.

 

[jmc007]

Have you ever asked Jesus to help you Silver? It will change your life.

 

[Amnesia]

The concept of freewill, we can either accept God help or not..I suspect that would be the perspective of jmc007.

I really do not know...I do know that at times in my own life, certain things I have experienced make me question my own beliefs, or rather the lack of them and sometimes I wonder and even perhaps hope...I don't know, I am not really explaining this very well.

Personally i don't know what to believe, i'm not religious but can't rule out the existence of a God ..maybe its just a hope thing.

 

[Castiel]

Personally i don't know what to believe, i'm not religious but can't rule out the existence of God ..maybe its just a hope thing.

You are similar to me. I simply remain sceptical. The way I see it, if God exists then he gave me the freewill so he can hardly blame me for being a little questioning. I'm sure he will forgive me.

 

[Sliver]

Why would you want to?

Because analogies are effective at revealing false premises in syllogisms. I'd like to know an effective one when explaining why the bible shouldn't be used for evidence for god.

I would treat the Iliad and The Odyssey as they are written. I would approach them as epic poems that may have been partially based on historical events or at the least, have been based on oral tradition. The way I would treat looking a the texts of the Bible...I wouldn't approach a textual criticism of Genesis in the same way as I would a textual Criticism of the Epistles of Paul, as the intent and content is different.

I would not compare the texts are they are not directly comparable..other than perhaps if the language within gave us insight into the languages and translations therin..but then that is a slightly different discipline.

I'm more interested in validity than anything else. If many ancient books are deemed myths, then why does the Bible get a free pass as truth ?

 

[Sliver]

Have you ever asked Jesus to help you Silver? It will change your life.

No.

Why did Saul get a Damascus Road revelation while the rest of us get nothing, no evidence, no good reason, just faith ? Sorry but I don't do faith. If god is real and he wants me to believe and follow him, why not afford me the same privilege he afforded Saul ?

 

[jmc007]

I don't understand how the Bible says faith is a gift and also that you can not please God without faith.
Seems a paradox to me.
I have a few times thought why can't you just appear in the sky to everyone and say I am here. Or just speak to us all.
I guess freewill is part of that.

May not sound a very spirit filled thing to say.