Tower Hamlets mayor removed from office

dowie said:
Oh but they do...

Perhaps you should look up Mao's 'New Democracy'
Click to expand...

Well thats not really the same thing nor relevant to the 'original' democracy. Look up types of democracy in regards to democracy and not 'new democracy', and you'll see different ideals to it.
 
Kind of irrelevant to the point... yes Chinese democracy is very different thus me mentioning it in the first place when you wanted to restrict my original point to 'liberal democracy'
 
Last edited:
dowie said:
No it is a bit different, it is more like having a local vicar or priest endorse a candidate... which is a bit dodgy for a religious leader, yet apparently not for these Muslim leaders. Then again they went a bit further than an endorsement - they told people it was their religious obligation to vote for him.
Click to expand...

Well it's not a officially recognised position so just a regular joe to you and me, perhaps these imams thought it would be for their benefit voting for mr luftar just like how everyone else chooses to vote. Unions vote labour because it's benefical for unions, and union members are influenced by the unions.

So they gave people an incentive however wishy washy it was to vote for someone they backed. Shocking
 
dowie said:
Kind of irrelevant to the point... yes Chinese democracy is very different thus me mentioning it in the first place when you wanted to restrict my original point to 'liberal democracy'
Click to expand...

Yes because I was making the point that Islam and democracy in general are not at conflict, but it would be in conflict with certain types of democracies.
 
dowie said:
No it is a bit different, it is more like having a local vicar or priest endorse a candidate... which is a bit dodgy for a religious leader, yet apparently not for these Muslim leaders. Then again they went a bit further than an endorsement - they told people it was their religious obligation to vote for him.
Click to expand...

To my knowledge they didn't actually tell people it was their religious obligation this was the allegation made by the petitioners based on their own interpretation.

Basically some letter was written saying they back lutfur rahman and that he is the best man, signed by a load imams and leaders and published in some newspaper. Not that very sinister at all, if his bribed them to do that then their is an issue, but their isnt enough evidence to suggest so, nor would he really need to do that as he had majority of support from the muslim comminity already.
 
lemonade said:
To my knowledge they didn't actually tell people it was their religious obligation this was the allegation made by the petitioners based on their own interpretation.

Basically some letter was written saying they back lutfur rahman and that he is the best man, signed by a load imams and leaders and published in some newspaper. Not that very sinister at all, if his bribed them to do that then their is an issue, but their isnt enough evidence to suggest so, nor would he really need to do that as he had majority of support from the muslim comminity already.
Click to expand...

Well if Mr luftar during his time in office was supportive to local mosques and provided assistance to these local institutions I can see why these imams backed him and encouraged people to democratically vote for him. Seems reasonable.

Would be a little like a Jewish institution asking it's audience to vote for a Jewish candidate if said candidate would be beneficial to them, or any other institution.

As you said if bribery was involved then that's a different matter, although I haven't seen that being suggested.
 
lemonade said:
Oh please, you have not experienced a single thread of abuse that minorities groups have gone through, you are from a privileged white background, trust me you dont have a clue. The scars still run deep in the Bangladeshi community in Tower Hamlets, it wasn't long ago you gangs of white youth who used to casually go around smashing heads of asian youth, then theres the institutional racism that ran deep, there is still widespread discrimination everywhere.
Click to expand...

Go ahead and pretend you're the only victim in the world. You have absolutely no idea whether I come from a priviledged or underpriviledged background. You have absolutely no idea whether I have experienced a single thread of abuse or not.

The fact I disowned my own father because he hated my wifes colour, and the fact I was physically threatened by some of my wifes family because I'm not the same colour as her is something you wouldn't know. But you appear so wrapped up in being the only victim that I don't want to burst your bubble. Feel free. Go ahead. Pretend I have no clue if it makes you feel better. I have broad shoulders :)

EDIT: Oh and by "you gangs of white youths" it sounds like you're assuming I am condoning such behaviour or even taking part in it. Let's not stoop to that level please.
 
Last edited:
lemonade said:
Yes because I was making the point that Islam and democracy in general are not at conflict, but it would be in conflict with certain types of democracies.
Click to expand...

nah they're not in general and I never said they were in a general sense, but democracy, in general, would be conflict with some (more fundamentalist) Islamic beliefs
 
lemonade said:
To my knowledge they didn't actually tell people it was their religious obligation this was the allegation made by the petitioners based on their own interpretation.
Click to expand...

is the interpretation in dispute?

The judgment also found Rahman to be the first person since the 19th century to be found guilty of the misdeed of unlawful religious influence.

As the then mayor campaigned for re-election, local Muslims were told “that it was a religious duty to vote for Mr Rahman”, the judge said.
Click to expand...
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...mayor-lutfur-rahman-found-guilty-of-electoral

it seems pretty clear that they did indeed tell local muslims that it was 'a religious duty to vote for Mr Rahman', it would be rather trivial for them to show otherwise if there had been some issue in interpreting the letter
 
Last edited:
Craterloads said:
Would be a little like a Jewish institution asking it's audience to vote for a Jewish candidate if said candidate would be beneficial to them, or any other institution.
Click to expand...

yes it would, and it is pretty dodgy

yet seemingly these Muslim Imams are happy with it, you'd likely get an uproar if the local vicar tried telling the congregation in some parish that it was some religious duty/obligation to vote for person X
 
dowie said:
yes it would, and it is pretty dodgy

yet seemingly these Muslim Imams are happy with it, you'd likely get an uproar if the local vicar tried telling the congregation in some parish that it was some religious duty/obligation to vote for person X
Click to expand...

So do hundreds / thousands of Christian leaders all across the world. And hundreds / thousands of rabbis, and probably many many more leaders of other religions too.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...rse-candidates-thumbing-noses-at-the-irs?lite

Why, are they not people? Don't they vote and support things that benefit them or their organisations just like many other organisations like I mentioned before unions.

Mr luftar won their backing, and like I mentioned ealier perhaps Mr luftar has aided mosques in the local area during his previous term. It makes sense they would back him and campaign for him.

Non of this appears out of the ordinary.
 
Last edited:
it is the UK that is relevant here rather than 'around the world'

and yes it is out of the ordinary

and again it isn't comparable to a trade union... how would a trade union endorsing a candidate fall under 'unlawful religious influence'?
 
Last edited:
dowie said:
it is the UK that is relevant here rather than 'around the world'

and yes it is out of the ordinary
Click to expand...

Do they stop being religious leaders abroad?

which is a bit dodgy for a religious leader, yet apparently not for these Muslim leaders.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder, candidate convinced voter A to support him, voter A saw the benefits for him / his organisation so rallied for more votes for political candidate using incentives they probably believed in given with candidate in charge it would benefit them / thief organisation.

Shock horror
 
Craterloads said:
Do they stop being religious leaders abroad?
Click to expand...

no, but we're talking about UK law and a UK election* and you're posting clips of some Christian from a foreign country... it has no relevance

feel free to post instances where other religious leaders have done the same thing in the UK though

fact is a dodgy candidate and some dodgy imams crossed the line whether you like it or not

(*granted in this particular area it did seem more like a third world election but Tower Hamlets is still part of the UK)
 
Last edited:
dowie said:
no, but we're talking about UK law and a UK election* and you're posting clips of some Christian from a foreign country... it has no relevance

feel free to post instances where other religious leaders have done the same thing in the UK though

fact is a dodgy candidate and some dodgy imams crossed the line whether you like it or not
Click to expand...

Well you did make a point about religious leaders, just correcting you regardless of geography as demonstrated.

Meh, like I said if it was beneficial for the local imams / mosques / institutions I can see why they endorsed him. Just like any other groups do.

Edit: yea because corrupt politicians don't exist elsewhere in the UK. Oh wait they do....
 
Last edited:
you've completely missed the point and you haven't corrected anything, we're talking about a UK election, some other religious leader in a country not subject to UK law has no relevance

this was a case of religious leaders telling people it is a duty to vote for him

and again that isn't the same as 'any other group' - 'unlawful religious influence' unsurprisingly covers religious groups....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom