Finnish man fined £83,000 for speeding because he earns £10.1 million

George Hincapie · 2 Jun 2015 at 15:52

Burnsy2023 said:
Which kinda proves the opposite point. The fine should be a financial penalty not for admin costs. If people don't find it an appropriate penalty, it's not doing it's job.

'Appropriate' is subjective. Whether it's a small amount to you personally or not is irrelevant - it's money that belongs to you that you are having to pay as a consequence. No-one likes having to pay a fine, regardless of the amount or how rich they are.

Burnsy2023 · 2 Jun 2015 at 15:55

balky12 said:
Everyone knows most 'fines' cover supposed admin costs.

They may cover the admin costs, but that's not the purpose of the fine. Whilst the points may be the punishment that most people fear, there is supposed to be a financial penalty that acts as a deterrent as well. Generally speeding fines aren't low because the costs are low, they're low as they are deemed a low severity offence.

This is the whole purpose of the standard scale of court fines.

Burnsy2023 · 2 Jun 2015 at 15:57

George Hincapie said:
'Appropriate' is subjective. Whether it's a small amount to you personally or not is irrelevant - it's money that belongs to you that you are having to pay as a consequence. No-one likes having to pay a fine, regardless of the amount or how rich they are.

If you fined me £1 I really couldn't care less. If you fined me a £100 then I would. The impact is not having to pay a fine it's the result that has on my life. The higher income you are then the higher the amount to impact that quality of life.

balky12 · 2 Jun 2015 at 15:59

Burnsy2023 said:
They may cover the admin costs, but that's not the purpose of the fine. Whilst the points may be the punishment that most people fear, there is supposed to be a financial penalty that acts as a deterrent as well. Generally speeding fines aren't low because the costs are low, they're low as they are deemed a low severity offence.

This is the whole purpose of the standard scale of court fines.

The fine is a punishment.

Glad you agree it is a low severity offence. So fining someone as much as a supercar or a house / flat in some areas seems rather excessive. Regardless of how much money they are earning?

Burnsy2023 · 2 Jun 2015 at 16:04

balky12 said:
The fine is a punishment.

Glad you agree it is a low severity offence. So fining someone as much as a supercar or a house / flat in some areas seems rather excessive. Regardless of how much money they are earning?

A fine is a punishment if it's the right amount. Like I said it needs to be an amount that gets my attention and will result in me making a better decision in future. Depending on what I earn depends where that amount lies which is why income is important.

Fining me £1 isn't going to change my behaviour, just like fining someone £1000 isn't going to affect someone earning £10m.

Efour · 2 Jun 2015 at 16:04

balky12 · 2 Jun 2015 at 16:06

Burnsy2023 said:
A fine is a punishment if it's the right amount. Like I said it needs to be an amount that gets my attention and will result in me making a better decision in future. Depending on what I earn depends where that amount lies which is why income is important.

Fining me £1 isn't going to change my behaviour, just like fining someone £1000 isn't going to affect someone earning £10m.

So it doesn't change your behaviour. So what? Do it again. Do it a 3rd time, and a 4th.

Then do it a 5th. Oh wait, can't. Banned from driving for too many points.

4 low severity offences then ban. No matter your net worth.

Working as intended I'm afraid.

Burnsy2023 · 2 Jun 2015 at 16:09

balky12 said:
So it doesn't change your behaviour. So what? Do it again. Do it a 3rd time, and a 4th.

Then do it a 5th. Oh wait, can't. Banned from driving for too many points.

4 low severity offences then ban. No matter your net worth.

Working as intended I'm afraid.

Firstly, they don't always lead to a disqualification and secondly, what about non-endorsable offences?

The points may be working as intended, but the fines aren't. Are you suggesting we should just scrap fines?

balky12 · 2 Jun 2015 at 16:17

Burnsy2023 said:
Firstly, they don't always lead to a disqualification and secondly, what about non-endorsable offences?

The points may be working as intended, but the fines aren't. Are you suggesting we should just scrap fines?

I was under the impression that if you got 12 points on your license it was a ban. (obviously at the same time, as points do fall off)

Non-endorsable offences. You mean like parking? Driving in a bus lane? Not wearin a seatbelt as a passenger? You seriously wanting to fine richer people 10's or 100's of thousands for committing an act that even the police don't think it is worth any points?

Righto.

Burnsy2023 · 2 Jun 2015 at 16:19

balky12 said:
I was under the impression that if you got 12 points on your license it was a ban. (obviously at the same time, as points do fall off)

That's all under the discretion of the magistrate or DJ.

balky12 said:
Non-endorsable offences. You mean like parking? Driving in a bus lane? Not wearin a seatbelt as a passenger? You seriously wanting to fine richer people 10's or 100's of thousands for committing an act that even the police don't think it is worth any points?

Righto.

Yes, I meant offences without points (which isn't the choice of the Police btw). Do you think there should be a fine that acts as a punishment and deterrent?

balky12 · 2 Jun 2015 at 16:27

Burnsy2023 said:
That's all under the discretion of the magistrate or DJ.

Yes, I meant offences without points. Do you think there should be a fine that acts as a punishment and deterrent?

Not all criminal offences mean jail time. Disrection of the magistrate.

£60 (or whatever it is) fixed penatly is already a punishment.

Just because someone can afford it more than someone else that should not matter. They are both £60 out of pocket for commiting the same offence.

Say the bloke in question knew he was going to be fined £83,000. Let's just say he gave the policeman £20,000. Ticket dissapears, policemen is happy and the bloke is happy, he just saved himself £63,000.

That kind of scenario doesn't happen with the £60 fine. No one is going to offer a policemen enough money to entice them to forget the fine, they might as well take the points and the £60.

Burnsy2023 · 2 Jun 2015 at 17:21

balky12 said:
Not all criminal offences mean jail time. Disrection of the magistrate.

£60 (or whatever it is) fixed penatly is already a punishment.

Just because someone can afford it more than someone else that should not matter. They are both £60 out of pocket for commiting the same offence.

Say the bloke in question knew he was going to be fined £83,000. Let's just say he gave the policeman £20,000. Ticket dissapears, policemen is happy and the bloke is happy, he just saved himself £63,000.

That kind of scenario doesn't happen with the £60 fine. No one is going to offer a policemen enough money to entice them to forget the fine, they might as well take the points and the £60.

Will a £60 fine change the behaviour of someone who earns £10m?

I'll ignore the rest considering it's completely irrelevant. The Police don't even levy the fine.

George Hincapie · 2 Jun 2015 at 19:51

Burnsy2023 said:
A fine is a punishment if it's the right amount. Like I said it needs to be an amount that gets my attention and will result in me making a better decision in future. Depending on what I earn depends where that amount lies which is why income is important.

Fining me £1 isn't going to change my behaviour, just like fining someone £1000 isn't going to affect someone earning £10m.

A fine is a punishment regardless of the amount. Whether you view it that way or not is irrelevant. The amount shouldn't have to force you to shop at Lidl in order for it to work.

The fact you have been punished at all should be sufficient to change your behaviour.

George Hincapie · 2 Jun 2015 at 19:54

Burnsy2023 said:
Will a £60 fine change the behaviour of someone who earns £10m?

That depends. You can't just contend that someone's income dictates their reaction to being in trouble with the Police or how they might feel about breaking the law. Everyone is different and reacts differently in the same circumstances. You're in the Police aren't you? You should know that better than most here.

Efour · 2 Jun 2015 at 20:19

edit - no point lol

balky12 · 2 Jun 2015 at 20:57

Burnsy2023 said:
Will a £60 fine change the behaviour of someone who earns £10m?

I'll ignore the rest considering it's completely irrelevant. The Police don't even levy the fine.

Yep just ignore it. Irrelevant because you have no counter to it. Last time I checked the police issued speeding fines.

If you're talking about fines from cameras, chances are if you been caught by one of those you aren't very bright and probably aren't on millions anyways.

Talking of irrelevant... You keep harping on about fines being a deterrent... I wager most people who get caught speeding aren't on millions and £60 is quite a big deal to them. Yet they still do it. With many people re-offending. Hence suspensions.

What's the plan now? £60 isn't a deterrent for people who haven't got a bucket to **** in.

You're argument fails on too many levels. It's a fine. It's a punishment. If it deters that's a bonus. Same punishment for the same offence regardless of race, age, wealth, sex, etc. seems pretty fair to me.

Stop hating on those that earn more.

balky12 · 2 Jun 2015 at 20:58

George Hincapie said:
You're in the Police aren't you? You should know that better than most here.

Wow. Explains a lot if true.

pinkowl · 2 Jun 2015 at 21:06

I can see why some think it is unfair but it really isnt. He obviously didnt learn on the first time and he should understand how the day fines work (he earns around that in 12 days as he got 12 day fines) and should have thought about it before speeding.

Also no point having same amount fine for everyone as it would hit harder those who do not earn much and the rich would just ignore the rules. It is rightly by % rather than fixed amount.

You can always refuse to pay and go to jail instead though.

SexyGreyFox · 2 Jun 2015 at 21:08

Burnsy2023 said:
Will a £60 fine change the behaviour of someone who earns £10m?

Perhaps not but a few points will.

And don't say rubbish like they can afford a chauffeur.

Werewolf · 2 Jun 2015 at 21:10

George Hincapie said:
A fine is a punishment regardless of the amount. Whether you view it that way or not is irrelevant. The amount shouldn't have to force you to shop at Lidl in order for it to work.

The fact you have been punished at all should be sufficient to change your behaviour.

Except that unless the fine is of a sufficient level to actually cause it to be a punishment, it's pointless.

There is zero point in fining someone earning £100k, let alone £10 million a couple of hundred quid if you want it to have the same punishing effect on them, as it would on someone earning £20k.

If it's too low and (as seems to be the case with speeding in finland) there isn't another element to it, it simply becomes a cost of driving rather than something to make you think twice about doing it again.

For example if I'm driving a £100k car and earning £10 million a year a couple of hundred pounds as a fine is probably less than the cost of a good new tyre for the car.

The UK system doesn't go to the same extremes as some of the European ones, but it does certainly recognise that the deterrent and punishment effect of fines varies depending on the income, and lets the courts decide a fine based on your weekly income for a lot of offences, specifically so that it (in theory) has the same effect regardless of if you're earning £200 a week, or £1k a week.