First ever motorist convicted for 'lane hogging'

So why should the drivers trying to be responsible and travel at the correct speed be 2nd class citizens to all the others who think it is OK to hoon along well in excess of the speed limit?

Er, no-one said they do. The situation is people who have ample opportunity to pull in but don't. You can drive up the M40 on a saturday morning and barely anyone is using lane 1, instead they sit in lane 2 or 3 for no apparent reason.

Maybe they feel 2nd class if they go into lane 1....
 
I have read some of the information about the speed restrictions.

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Without going into too much detail, there is a difference between using reduced speed limits to improve throughput during congestion and problems with throughput caused by people 'hogging' the middle lane.

One is caused simply by volume of traffic, the other is caused by poor driving, which causes an unnecessary backlog of traffic behind them adding to any congestion.

In congestion, you do encounter a few drivers who don't take up the opportunity to move over when they probably should. But in reality this makes only a small amount of difference to the overall road conditions and if anything it is just a bit inconsiderate.

The real problem is people who sit for hundreds of meters, if not sometimes several miles, overtaking one or two cars who are well spread out. I have sometimes been stuck behind cars on a 2 lane motorway, who've sat for nearly 10 miles in the outside lane, never once have they changed lane and at most they've overtaken a dozen cars. Each time, I have overtaken the same cars, returned to the inside lane and then moved back out half a mile or so down the road when I've needed to overtake the next one. Never once was I 'boxed in'.

It is these people who cause congestion behind them and then once the congestion becomes bad enough, the only way to recover the problem is to wait for the volume of traffic to reduce, or by artificially reducing everyone's speed.
 
Without going into too much detail, there is a difference between using reduced speed limits to improve throughput during congestion and problems with throughput caused by people 'hogging' the middle lane.

One is caused simply by volume of traffic, the other is caused by poor driving, which causes an unnecessary backlog of traffic behind them adding to any congestion.

In congestion, you do encounter a few drivers who don't take up the opportunity to move over when they probably should. But in reality this makes only a small amount of difference to the overall road conditions and if anything it is just a bit inconsiderate.

The real problem is people who sit for hundreds of meters, if not sometimes several miles, overtaking one or two cars who are well spread out. I have sometimes been stuck behind cars on a 2 lane motorway, who've sat for nearly 10 miles in the outside lane, never once have they changed lane and at most they've overtaken a dozen cars. Each time, I have overtaken the same cars, returned to the inside lane and then moved back out half a mile or so down the road when I've needed to overtake the next one. Never once was I 'boxed in'.

It is these people who cause congestion behind them and then once the congestion becomes bad enough, the only way to recover the problem is to wait for the volume of traffic to reduce, or by artificially reducing everyone's speed.

I am going to play Devil's Advocate here for a moment (sorry). What causes more congestion, the volume of traffic on the road coupled with the practice of many drivers to speed, or the guy you mention above?

This, to me, is why speed is such an important factor.

By rights, if he was doing 70, you should have no need to go around him, nor should any other driver. As such his choice to stay out in the right lane is moot. But because most drivers insist on going faster than 70 they feel 'held up' but this in no way creates congestion. His road position causes no more or no less congestion than it would if everyone was doing 70 because you would simply slide over to the left lane and match his speed. Everyone else behind you would do the same and you would have a 70MPH procession in the left lane instead of the right. Unless you speed to go past and then the guy behind you speeds to go past you, but after you have pulled over and need to come out again the guy who was behind the guy who was behind you is also speeding and has to brake sharp because you just fired yourself into a little gap in front of him. Then the traffic a mile or so back comes to a stand still. That is the reality of how the roads work. Fair point if he was doing 60 though - he should have moved over.

The point really is that if everyone did 70 congestion would ease, it would ease more if they all did 60 and more again if they all did 50. Braking distances reduce, there would be plenty of time and room to overtake HGV's because you would not have multiple idiots in BMW's and Audi's hooning past at 120MPH and lane discipline would be better because of this. It is fallacy to think that going faster improves things. It does not and all of the evidence shows this (other than when talking in terms of quieter roads where an increase in speed could be justified due to far lower traffic volumes for example).

Question - if this fella was driving in an average speed check area would it have been such a problem for you? I'm guessing so, because you would still want to speed past him, right? Or would you sit back and trundle along at the enforced limit the same as everyone else? What would be the net result of this?

Roadworks is another example of how effective enforced speed limits work. In most areas (other than the M6 south J10a-8) I have not really been in stop start traffic in roadworks unless there is a problem up ahead. I drive through the stretch on M6 south from J14-J12 almost every day without incident, even though the volume of traffic is very high.

Indeed, this is a shining example of how enforcing a reduced speed limit aids congestion. The point being that even if you made the legal speed limit 100MPH, you would still get many drivers refusing to go that fast so you end up back in square one every time one of these guys decides to make an overtake. The Police and Government cannot really turn around and set a minimum speed limit of 85-90, for example, because they have spent the last two decades telling us "speed is bad, mmmmkay?".

If you enforce a reduced speed limit you force people to play the game in the other direction, you slow things down, get more cars into the same road space and everything flows nicely. This is being proven time and time again up and down the country and in other areas of the world. So the idea of someone remaining in a lane and holding up traffic becomes moot because in these areas you usually have 4 lanes of traffic all going roughly the same speed without issue. So what is the core problem here? Too many cars on the road + propensity to speed or people hogging the middle lane and not 'moving over'? It would certainly seem the former in the face of mounting evidence that shows running 4 lanes at a reduced speed helps reduce congestion! On that stretch of the M6 I drive every day I can sit in the middle lane and be alongside the same cars for 10 miles. Sometimes I just sit in lane 1. The point being that it does not really matter what lane you are in because everyone is doing roughly the same speed. That is the key.

So, fundamentally, more speed is bad for congestion. Ironically the fella you accuse of causing congestion was actually helping to ease it by creating a steady flow by enforcing a speed on everyone behind - much the same way as variable or average speed areas work :)

When you multiply that steady flow across several lanes you are basically doing what variable speed limit areas do. But the truth, I expect, is probably closer to you being upset because you wanted to be going 100, not 70. Am I right? (unless he was doing well below 70 in which case I agree with you :) )
 
I am going to play Devil's Advocate here for a moment (sorry). What causes more congestion, the volume of traffic on the road coupled with the practice of many drivers to speed, or the guy you mention above?

This, to me, is why speed is such an important factor.

By rights, if he was doing 70, you should have no need to go around him, nor should any other driver. As such his choice to stay out in the right lane is moot. But because most drivers insist on going faster than 70 they feel 'held up' but this in no way creates congestion. His road position causes no more or no less congestion than it would if everyone was doing 70 because you would simply slide over to the left lane and match his speed. Everyone else behind you would do the same and you would have a 70MPH procession in the left lane instead of the right. Unless you speed to go past and then the guy behind you speeds to go past you, but after you have pulled over and need to come out again the guy who was behind the guy who was behind you is also speeding and has to brake sharp because you just fired yourself into a little gap in front of him. Then the traffic a mile or so back comes to a stand still. That is the reality of how the roads work. Fair point if he was doing 60 though - he should have moved over.

The point really is that if everyone did 70 congestion would ease, it would ease more if they all did 60 and more again if they all did 50. Braking distances reduce, there would be plenty of time and room to overtake HGV's because you would not have multiple idiots in BMW's and Audi's hooning past at 120MPH and lane discipline would be better because of this. It is fallacy to think that going faster improves things. It does not and all of the evidence shows this (other than when talking in terms of quieter roads where an increase in speed could be justified due to far lower traffic volumes for example).

Question - if this fella was driving in an average speed check area would it have been such a problem for you? I'm guessing so, because you would still want to speed past him, right? Or would you sit back and trundle along at the enforced limit the same as everyone else? What would be the net result of this?

Roadworks is another example of how effective enforced speed limits work. In most areas (other than the M6 south J10a-8) I have not really been in stop start traffic in roadworks unless there is a problem up ahead. I drive through the stretch on M6 south from J14-J12 almost every day without incident, even though the volume of traffic is very high.

Indeed, this is a shining example of how enforcing a reduced speed limit aids congestion. The point being that even if you made the legal speed limit 100MPH, you would still get many drivers refusing to go that fast so you end up back in square one every time one of these guys decides to make an overtake. The Police and Government cannot really turn around and set a minimum speed limit of 85-90, for example, because they have spent the last two decades telling us "speed is bad, mmmmkay?".

If you enforce a reduced speed limit you force people to play the game in the other direction, you slow things down, get more cars into the same road space and everything flows nicely. This is being proven time and time again up and down the country and in other areas of the world. So the idea of someone remaining in a lane and holding up traffic becomes moot because in these areas you usually have 4 lanes of traffic all going roughly the same speed without issue. So what is the core problem here? Too many cars on the road + propensity to speed or people hogging the middle lane and not 'moving over'? It would certainly seem the former in the face of mounting evidence that shows running 4 lanes at a reduced speed helps reduce congestion! On that stretch of the M6 I drive every day I can sit in the middle lane and be alongside the same cars for 10 miles. Sometimes I just sit in lane 1. The point being that it does not really matter what lane you are in because everyone is doing roughly the same speed. That is the key.

So, fundamentally, more speed is bad for congestion. Ironically the fella you accuse of causing congestion was actually helping to ease it by creating a steady flow by enforcing a speed on everyone behind - much the same way as variable or average speed areas work :)

When you multiply that steady flow across several lanes you are basically doing what variable speed limit areas do. But the truth, I expect, is probably closer to you being upset because you wanted to be going 100, not 70. Am I right? (unless he was doing well below 70 in which case I agree with you :) )

But what difference does it make if everyone is travelling at 50mph or 70mph? The comparison you are making is average speed areas vs non-monitored roads. Speed is negligible to the point of being irrelevant in that comparison. Do you happen to have a link to any of the studies regarding easing congestion? Most of the papers i've found have stated the 50mph and average speed zones are safety related and to reduce 'speed related incidents' with no mention of easing congestion. The problem is that people currently have a choice, some vehicles can't reach 70, others prefer to just drive casually at 60mph to conserve mpg while at the same time other drivers could use the extra time and if competant and in a capable car have no reason not to go at the full speed limit. The biggest problem is driver awareness. Many people simply don't know how to use a motorway as it isn't mandatory to teach or learn in detail in order to pass the driving test. This leaves people to pass a test and then learn motorways on their own, causing bad habits and all kinds of other issues.
 
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Not at all.

I am saying, usually without fail, that scientific peer reviewed evidence is more credible than the anecdotal kind.

Nice motor by the way. The new model is lovely.

Damn this is far too sensible for GD.

Can't we go back to George suggesting poor people shouldn't be allowed to drive? Need to fulfil the normal drivel quota for the day.
 
On that stretch of the M6 I drive every day I can sit in the middle lane and be alongside the same cars for 10 miles. Sometimes I just sit in lane 1. The point being that it does not really matter what lane you are in because everyone is doing roughly the same speed. That is the key.

Yup, I've noticed this on my commute home, I join the M6 from the M69, and come off again just before Birmingham.

I've seen the same cars that join the M6 and move straight to the 3rd lane come off at the same junction as me at the same time as me, even though I sit and "chill" in the 1st lane and go with the flow of traffic, whereas I see them constantly nipping into whichever lane happens to be going faster at that moment. :p

But what difference does it make if everyone is travelling at 50mph or 70mph?

The safe stopping distance at 50mph is less than that of 70mph. Less empty space means more cars in the same length of road. Pretty obvious I would have thought :confused:
 
The safe stopping distance at 50mph is less than that of 70mph. Less empty space means more cars in the same length of road. Pretty obvious I would have thought :confused:

Is there any evidence to support this or is it just a general brazen statement based on absolute peak traffic conditions? That situation only works in a fully saturated road condition. In medium to light traffic it would be of no relevance.
 
Is there any evidence to support this or is it just a general brazen statement based on absolute peak traffic conditions? That situation only works in a fully saturated road condition. In medium to light traffic it would be of no relevance.

I'm not sure what evidence you would like exactly?

What is it you're arguing against, that the safe stopping distance at 50 is less than 70, or that cars closer together means more cars in the same space? :confused:

Of course we're talking about heavy traffic, that's what the last 10+ posts have been about...
 
I always drive in the middle lane, only enter left lane when leaving motorway.

If you up my backside in the middle lane you way over the speed limit! :D

I go on the outside lane sometimes, but the car stops getting faster at 130, so I gave up.

I dunno these tech cars! :p

Middle lane is the safest place to be on a motorway, anything goes pete tong and you have 2 directions of escape. ;)
 
I will happily drive at 80mph on the motorways (provided the weather isn't terrible) and it does frustrate me when drivers are in the 3rd lane of a 4 late carriage way thinking that they have a right to be there. I know I am speeding and breaking the law but at least I am aware of it... most of these lane hoggers have no idea that they are breaking the law too.

I have had police cars pass me when I am doing 80mph and they tend to casually glance over, I smile and they smile back. I think 80mph is not a big deal for them as long as I am not being stupid about it. If I was doing 90mph-100mph it would be a different matter because it actually becomes dangerous, whereas 80mph isn't going to hurt anyone especially when stopping distances in cars are pretty good nowadays. Lane hoggers on the other hand are dangerous and someone should be trying to educate drivers.

Learner drivers are not allowed on motorways so they miss out on the education. In addiition to asking questions like "on a motorway you need to brake suddenly, do you a) honk your horn, b) put your windows down or c) turn on your hazzards" they should also ask questions about overtaking/moving over during the theory test.

I was driving around 50 miles on the M25 on Sunday night and I lost count of how many cars I undertook in the first lane whilst they were in the 3rd and 4th lanes for absolutely no reason. Am I supposed to pull out all the way and overtake on the right?

They are expanding the motorways to handle the extra traffic but what is the point when 2 out of 4 lanes are not even being used. Those who used to hog the 2nd lane are now hogging the 3rd lane.

I recently wrote an email to our transport minister and a representative emailed me back 2 months later stating that I should contact the highways department, which I thought was a bit useless.

/rant
 
I hate it when it rains on a motorway, I slow right down and take it nelson. ;)

Usually an Audi or BMW driver will fly past, and you see the front tires are not even on the road. Face palm ! :rolleyes:
 
I don't understand why motorway etiquette isn't part of the driving test, it can be easily taught on a duel cartridge way, the principal is the same.

There is only one driving lane, additional lanes are for overtaking.

The caveat being that on a three lane (or more) motor way, lanes may be designated for exit lanes, but it's a simple concept that's signposted.
 
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I'm slightly disappointed, the impression I got from this thread was that only BMW's and Audi's fly past in the outside lane. This sounded like there was some sort of nice free flowing private lane only for these two manufacturers.

You can imagine my disappointment today when I discover the outside lane is actually crammed full of all manners of different manufacturers vehicles. I even spotted a Dacia at one point :(

Why did you all lie to us about this? :(
 
[TW]Fox;28218130 said:
I'm slightly disappointed, the impression I got from this thread was that only BMW's and Audi's fly past in the outside lane. This sounded like there was some sort of nice free flowing private lane only for these two manufacturers.

You can imagine my disappointment today when I discover the outside lane is actually crammed full of all manners of different manufacturers vehicles. I even spotted a Dacia at one point :(

Why did you all lie to us about this? :(

Did you tailgate them, flash your lights or beep your horn at them? You have to show dominance, otherwise how will they lean?
 
I will happily drive at 80mph on the motorways (provided the weather isn't terrible) and it does frustrate me when drivers are in the 3rd lane of a 4 late carriage way thinking that they have a right to be there. I know I am speeding and breaking the law but at least I am aware of it... most of these lane hoggers have no idea that they are breaking the law too.

I have had police cars pass me when I am doing 80mph and they tend to casually glance over, I smile and they smile back. I think 80mph is not a big deal for them as long as I am not being stupid about it. If I was doing 90mph-100mph it would be a different matter because it actually becomes dangerous, whereas 80mph isn't going to hurt anyone especially when stopping distances in cars are pretty good nowadays. Lane hoggers on the other hand are dangerous and someone should be trying to educate drivers.

Learner drivers are not allowed on motorways so they miss out on the education. In addiition to asking questions like "on a motorway you need to brake suddenly, do you a) honk your horn, b) put your windows down or c) turn on your hazzards" they should also ask questions about overtaking/moving over during the theory test.

I was driving around 50 miles on the M25 on Sunday night and I lost count of how many cars I undertook in the first lane whilst they were in the 3rd and 4th lanes for absolutely no reason. Am I supposed to pull out all the way and overtake on the right?

They are expanding the motorways to handle the extra traffic but what is the point when 2 out of 4 lanes are not even being used. Those who used to hog the 2nd lane are now hogging the 3rd lane.

I recently wrote an email to our transport minister and a representative emailed me back 2 months later stating that I should contact the highways department, which I thought was a bit useless.

/rant

Similar issues on the m62 around Leeds, widened to 4 lanes to ease congestion, but the reality is people just spread out, completely negating the belief that an extra lane would ease congestion, now people just seem to pick a lane and speed, and just sit there.
 
Is there any evidence to support this or is it just a general brazen statement based on absolute peak traffic conditions? That situation only works in a fully saturated road condition. In medium to light traffic it would be of no relevance.

Of course it's less, your going slower so you can stop quicker??
 
I always drive in the middle lane, only enter left lane when leaving motorway.

If you up my backside in the middle lane you way over the speed limit! :D

I go on the outside lane sometimes, but the car stops getting faster at 130, so I gave up.

I dunno these tech cars! :p

Middle lane is the safest place to be on a motorway, anything goes pete tong and you have 2 directions of escape. ;)

I hope that's a troll post.
 
I find the inside lane is the "safest lane" on the motorway. If the traffic is going at 70mph I would just go into the inside lane. I am happy to sit at 70mph and get to where i am going without all this pulling in and out business.

But if I am doing 70 and come up to a car in the middle lane doing something under 70, obviously, it just silly and a little dangerous to have to pull out 2 lanes to overtake him. Same as when there is roadworks and they impose 40 or 50mph limit. Everyone slows down to 50 but occasionally you get a car doing like 40 when its 50. The road would be very congested due to the impact of the speed limit so no way one could pull out 2 lanes to overtake.
 
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