Belgians doctors agree to "assist the dying" of healthy 24yr old with suicidal thoughts

spudbynight · 30 Jun 2015 at 14:47

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-light-die-euthanasia-suicidal-thoughts.html

Story here of a 24 year old woman in Belgium. This woman doesn't have any terminal illness or anything that impacts her life. What she does have is suicidal ideation. Doctors in Belgium have now agreed to kill her, sorry, assist her dying.

Yes, I know this is being reported in the Daily Mail, but this is yet another example of the slippery slope on "assisted dying" being proven. The envelope on this keeps getting pushed further and further and I am firmly of the opinion that this is what we face in this country.

As a society we have gone from trying to stop people from killing themselves to helping them do it.

Amp34 · 30 Jun 2015 at 14:48

If she wants to die, she wants to die. I don't see the problem.

Forcing someone to stay alive so they eventually have to jump off a bridge/in front of a train or take horrendus amounts of drugs to overdose isn't particularly kind is it.

Sega Mega Dave · 30 Jun 2015 at 14:51

Doesn't reading the Daily Mail cause cancer?

George Hincapie · 30 Jun 2015 at 14:51

Amp34 said:
If she wants to die, she wants to die. I don't see the problem.

Forcing someone to stay alive so they eventually have to jump off a bridge/in front of a train or take horrendus amounts of drugs to overdose isn't particularly kind is it.

My view also. There should be some mandatory psychological assessment/counselling before progressing to that stage, but it might be nice to pop one's clogs with a little dignity.

Hotwired · 30 Jun 2015 at 14:51

A healthy 24 year old should not need help to kill themselves if they really feel like it.

Ones that really feel like it tend to do so.

tom_e · 30 Jun 2015 at 14:54

Hotwired said:
A healthy 24 year old should not need help to kill themselves if they really feel like it.

Ones that really feel like it tend to do so.

That's a fair point, if she truly really didn't want to go on living to the point she's gone though all this to get them to help her die she would have just committed suicide.

Monkeynut · 30 Jun 2015 at 14:55

Amp34 said:
If she wants to die, she wants to die. I don't see the problem.

Forcing someone to stay alive so they eventually have to jump off a bridge/in front of a train or take horrendus amounts of drugs to overdose isn't particularly kind is it.

But shouldn't we reach the root cause of this? Depression etc?

StriderX · 30 Jun 2015 at 14:56

Are you,

A. her?
B. her doctor?

If neither, please consult self.

*on a sidenote, its Belgium, they can do as the damn well please.

BigglesPiP · 30 Jun 2015 at 14:58

Oops, we turned death into an industry. The US would have adverts on TV by now.

I'd have thought getting the physical illness affecting her (I'm guessing a lot here) depression sorted would be a smarter move.

PinkFloyd · 30 Jun 2015 at 15:00

Don't see the issue myself. Yes it might seem odd that she doesn't want to continue with her life, but that's her choice. You can't just force someone to start enjoying their life. Better for her to be able to take a way out that isn't traumatic to others.

Which would you prefer. Reading on the news that doctors have assisted her? Or being on the train that she jumps in front of, or walking down the street and her jumping off a building in front of you?

Xordium · 30 Jun 2015 at 15:00

spudbynight said:
This woman doesn't have any terminal illness or anything that impacts her life.

Always good to start a position from a position of ignorance!

OhEsEcks · 30 Jun 2015 at 15:09

To be fair, if you want to kill yourself, you're better off having a professional help you. A mate of mine overdosed and it took him a while to die. Another mate hung himself in the cabin of a boat he was on, with his parents right there in the opposite bunk.

She could walk in front of a train. But that just makes everyone late for work and traumatises the driver of the train she walked in front of. She could top herself in her home. But again, she might not get it right. And if she does she could sit for a while before anyone finds her and that's just unpleasant for the biohazard teams that have to go in and clean up.

As someone with schizoaffective disorder, suicide is something I think about a lot. Not just as in "woe is me this darkened world" but the whole aspect of how you would go about it, the effects it would have on everyone immediately connected to you. The effects it has on those that have to deal with the immediate aftermath of finding your rotting corpse, et cetera.

Amp34 · 30 Jun 2015 at 15:14

Hotwired said:
A healthy 24 year old should not need help to kill themselves if they really feel like it.

Ones that really feel like it tend to do so.

It takes a heck of a lot of guts to kill yourself, especially if it'll involve something that may not kill you but horribly injure you...

George Hincapie said:
My view also. There should be some mandatory psychological assessment/counselling before progressing to that stage, but it might be nice to pop one's clogs with a little dignity.

Seems reasonable. As far as I know (correct me on this) it's not a quick checkup and "you're good to go", rather a fairly long process involving a number of people anyway. I'd assume one of those would be some kind of psychologist/counsellor?

Personally the stigma over suicide is a relic from religion, like much of this sort of stuff. The sooner we get rid of religious morals the sooner we have a freer society.

Haggisman · 30 Jun 2015 at 15:14

OhEsEcks said:
To be fair, if you want to kill yourself, you're better off having a professional help you. A mate of mine overdosed and it took him a while to die. Another mate hung himself in the cabin of a boat he was on, with his parents right there in the opposite bunk.

She could walk in front of a train. But that just makes everyone late for work and traumatises the driver of the train she walked in front of. She could top herself in her home. But again, she might not get it right. And if she does she could sit for a while before anyone finds her and that's just unpleasant for the biohazard teams that have to go in and clean up.

As someone with schizoaffective disorder, suicide is something I think about a lot. Not just as in "woe is me this darkened world" but the whole aspect of how you would go about it, the effects it would have on everyone immediately connected to you. The effects it has on those that have to deal with the immediate aftermath of finding your rotting corpse, et cetera.

This is how I see it as well, yes its very sad that she wants to kill herself, but given that she does, wouldn't it be more cruel to force her to live a miserable life she doesn't want to? Until it gets to the point where she takes her own life in a potentially painful and messy way, causing undue suffering to others in the process...

BigglesPiP · 30 Jun 2015 at 15:21

How about everyone put yourself in what may or may not be her shoes, I strongly suspect it is.

You develop depression, this is a physical illness! In your altered mental state you become suicidal and a Belgen doctor is willing to end your life at 24.

Does than not scare the willies out of you? I would want society to fix my physical condition and let me continue living, as I am now.

Hotwired · 30 Jun 2015 at 15:25

Call it assistance instead of poisoning til death and muse on how it's less traumatic all round if you get killed in an official place but the bar is set low if a young person with mental issues can walk in and get a ticket to be put down.

Xordium · 30 Jun 2015 at 15:25

BigglesPiP said:
I would want society to fix my physical condition and let me continue living, as I am now.

I know this may come as a shock to you ... but have consider the strong possibility that said doctors had actually attempted to cure her illness or alleviate to the point life was more manageable for her.

Or are you under the naive impression that we can cure such profound presentations with a degree of surety?

They are in this case simply obeying their duty as doctors (rightfully) and weighing the ethical aspects of the situation to reach a quite logical conclusion.

Europe is also more accepting of a good death as being a good result whereas in the UK we are more into pointless longevity and view all death as a failure. In my eyes that results in us having it wrong ethically, practically and financially.

Hotwired said:
Call it assistance instead of poisoning til death and muse on how it's less traumatic all round if you get killed in an official place but the bar is set low if a young person with mental issues can walk in and get a ticket to be put down.

Now this is a slippery slope fallacy. It also demonstrates a lack of consideration about what is going on or a lack of thought about what procedures may be in place.

cheesyboy · 30 Jun 2015 at 15:25

I'm in favour of there being an assisted dying provision.

From the facts presented, I'm not in favour in this particular case.

It seems like a mental illness, which should be medically treated, rather than something which requires assistance in death. My worry is that she ticks the boxes of requirements to qualify for a euthanasia through simple onerously worded law on the matter. Does her, presumed, mental health issue count as some sort of permanent debilitating illness?

We only have the DM to go on, though. There's almost certainly more to it than we've been told.

Dj_Jestar · 30 Jun 2015 at 15:25

Guy on internet says "It's a slippery slope" after reading a few paragraphs from newspapers.

Meanwhile qualified doctors, physicians and psychiatrists with the collective knowledge and experience of near immeasurable amounts have decided that assisted death is suitable after much diagnosis and investigation.

Hotwired · 30 Jun 2015 at 15:30

Excellent, so we can consider poisoning to death as an acceptable treatment for depression after much diagnosis and investigation of qualified doctors, physicians and psychiatrists with the collective knowledge and experience of near immeasurable amounts.

I disapprove.