Greece Elections

Dolph said:
It is very clear that, while additional debt relief would be needed (remember, Greece has already had €100bn of debt relief in 2012), the requirements have dramatically increased since the recovery was stopped and the tax income plummeted at the end of 2014....
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Greek tax income isn't particularly low, in fact they take a greater proportion of GDP in tax than the UK does. The problem is that the collapse of GDP caused by the austerity measures imposed upon it have prevented it from being in a position to pay back anything.

A sensible approach from the EU of restoring growth as the priority and then worrying about debt settlement would have been far more successful than the disaster of the last five years.
 
Diddums said:
If you spend money you don't have, regardless of where it came from, and this lands you in hardship, it's your fault. You can't blame others for this just because they lent Greece the money. They didn't spend it, Greece did.

They could've prevented this situation, sure, but they're not responsible for Greece.
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They could have chosen to invest in countries where the risk was lower, albeit the return would be lower as well!

And of course they gave money that weren't "theirs" they were safekeeping for their customers, that's how banks work, you give them money but you can withdraw that money anytime. It is their fault if they can't give you the money.

Of course if they left Greece default as they should, the banks would not be able to cover their customers and declared insolvent and the German/French governments would have to explain to their electorates how only 100k of their deposits is safe (which would have course mean that the governments would have to find the money somewhere), and how their Central Banks failed to properly regulate the main banks, and also lose a lot of money for guaranteeing the 100k. But no, Germany and France to lose money? Nah, lets just blame Greece for risky investments by our banks, give them loans to give back to our banks (i.e. our economy) even though the IMF says Greece cannot repay back, and blame Greece in the future for their shoddy tax system, even though that is not what caused the problem in the first place! Brilliant!
 
I fancy boys said:
It's put me off going. No one really knows what will happen over there over the next few weeks. Prices may shoot up, there may be civil unrest, places may just close altogether for the time being!
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My brothers in Rhodes atm. He says it's totally normal and peaceful. I think any unrest on the islands would be clamped down hard. They cannot afford to lose any tourism.
 
M1k3H said:
They could have chosen to invest in countries where the risk was lower, albeit the return would be lower as well!

And of course they gave money that weren't "theirs" they were safekeeping for their customers, that's how banks work, you give them money but you can withdraw that money anytime. It is their fault if they can't give you the money.

Of course if they left Greece default as they should, the banks would not be able to cover their customers and declared insolvent and the German/French governments would have to explain to their electorates how only 100k of their deposits is safe (which would have course mean that the governments would have to find the money somewhere), and how their Central Banks failed to properly regulate the main banks, and also lose a lot of money for guaranteeing the 100k. But no, Germany and France to lose money? Nah, lets just blame Greece for risky investments by our banks, give them loans to give back to our banks (i.e. our economy) even though the IMF says Greece cannot repay back, and blame Greece in the future for their shoddy tax system, even though that is not what caused the problem in the first place! Brilliant!
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The banks didn't spend all that money, neither did the IMF, Germany, France, my postman or your dog. Greece did, plain and simple. It's not that hard to understand shirley? :confused:
 
Fair point. I still maintain that Greece's financial woes are on them. Yes the banks were a contributing factor, but nobody forced them to soend that money.
 
robfosters said:
My brothers in Rhodes atm. He says it's totally normal and peaceful. I think any unrest on the islands would be clamped down hard. They cannot afford to lose any tourism.
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Problem is they already are. And some islands are very dependant on goods been shipped in. Already fuel rationing has started and a lot of places won't take credit cards either. So all might be alright at min Rhodes but tourist numbers are going to be way down.

My in laws in Crete say it's not too bad except u have to pay for everything in cash. Biggest issue is that shops are starting to run out of food.
 
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Diddums said:
Fair point. I still maintain that Greece's financial woes are on them. Yes the banks were a contributing factor, but nobody forced them to soend that money.
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Let's get something straight here. I am not arguing that Greece is completely innocent in all this. I said that Greek politicians were taking bribes on where to spend the money, so those politicians are at fault as well, along with the people who voted them in. But the point stands that if you are going to give money to someone you should do your due diligence. If you don't or if you've agreed high interests to spread the risk better, then it is your fault more than it is the person who took the money.

Greece should have been left to default in 2010. That would have led to Greece either implementing reforms to run a surplus, or simply people suffering and dying due to lack of food/services/healthcare/etc as nobody would lend them money to carry on as they were.

If they had done that, and in the meantime jailed all the crooked politicians and bankers, then surely by now the system would be working much better without anyone telling them what to do, simply because their hand would've been forced, and they would be recovering.

The high political costs of this happening though, pushed a bailout down the Greek's throats.
 
Mr Jack said:
Greek tax income isn't particularly low, in fact they take a greater proportion of GDP in tax than the UK does. The problem is that the collapse of GDP caused by the austerity measures imposed upon it have prevented it from being in a position to pay back anything.

A sensible approach from the EU of restoring growth as the priority and then worrying about debt settlement would have been far more successful than the disaster of the last five years.
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Please explain this chart a little more for me.
If all governments in the world listed, gain less than 50% of this GDP in taxes, where do they obtain the rest of their income for spending?
There can't be a 50% shortfall in every country.
So they either spend less, or the have other sources of revenue.
The Greeks haven't managed this for 30 years.

It also would suggest that Greece if they paid their taxes could run at a massive surplus, and paid of their debts in no time, if estimates of 50% loss of income tax revenue are true, which all sources seem to agree, they are.

Surely all that is needed, (and is suggested by this further austerity) is to push the system where they catch the tax evaders, and encourage the population to obey the law, instead of taking tax as option, with a 20% punishment when caught, unlike the UK 100% plus punishment.
 
Jokester said:
GDP is Gross Domestic Product, it includes private enterprise as well.
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Exactly my point.
If Greece are average on income as MrJack tells us, then some of their reforms might be working.

2013/14, government spending as a % of GDP is approx. 41.2% of GDP. As we know we ran a deficit, so we took in less than we earned.
Greece have over previous years ran deficits of 18-6% varying by year.
If they introduce no reforms they can't hope for growth along to fix this.

I am aware of his hatred of austerity, and read about it on every page at the last voting thread for the UK. Greece was badly in need of reform, as no system no matter how much growth you throw at it, can cope with overspends when you don't collect tax income your law suggests you will collect.
 
Of the opinion that Greece needs to feel the pain of failing state before it can seriously deal with its issues.

The EU swooping in with its Eurocrats is never a good answer, it is meddling and easy prey for dangerous mindsets to justify their actions.

Cut them loose, tomorrow.
 
My dear departed Grandad once said to me "Don't puck with the Greeks." :eek:

I have holidayed there a few times and can confirm his statement to be correct. :p

Ball is in your court EU! :mad:
 
A Greek No vote, and subsequent leaving euro, and the economic mess that might ensue would probably assist greatly in the UK referendum vote, where people would start voting yes to remain part of Europe.
Interesting, wonder how they will vote.
 
Hikari Kisugi said:
Exactly my point.
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I'm struggling to work out what your point is exactly. Greece's tax regime and budget deficit weren't all that extreme.

Greece have over previous years ran deficits of 18-6% varying by year.
If they introduce no reforms they can't hope for growth along to fix this.
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I don't think anyone is arguing that Greece didn't, or doesn't, need reform. The problem is that the austerity programme introduced has spectacularly failed to meet it's goals because it's had such a negative effect on growth. Greece needed its economy to be allowed to recover and time to implement reforms at a sensible pace.
 
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