Living Wage 2020... is it right?

Rroff said:
We've got teams at work that are running severely over stretched due to the fact that after the last 2 minimum wage rises they haven't replaced the next person who leaves to offset the raise.

I'm not sure it works as happily in this country even if it works in some parts of the US.
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I'd also argue that whilst the amount you are receiving might be more and make you happier, there must be some subliminal psychological negatives knowing what you're on is called "the minimum wage" as it implies your employer is not paying you for what they think you are worth, but because that is the legally smallest amount they can get away with.
 
dowie said:
yup it is amusing... somehow raising the minimum wage is a bad thing (presumably because the Tories did it) and the main argument against it seems to revolve around status anxiety - the lower paid entry level skilled people supposedly not feeling there is enough of a gap
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Not at all, it is a good thing but only if the the knock-on effect is that wages in the jobs above NMW jobs rise in accordance (IE semi-skilled/skilled posts). Otherwise you break the chain and insert an air gap that is difficult to cross.
 
an 'air gap' that is difficult to cross ???

I think the main thing is you get people making unwarranted speculations that are full of hot air...

though I'll point out again that you're welcome to find some evidence of these negative effects in other economies where the minimum wage has been raised
 
estebanrey said:
I'd also argue that whilst the amount you are receiving might be more and make you happier, there must be some subliminal psychological negatives knowing what you're on is called "the minimum wage" as it implies your employer is not paying you for what they think you are worth, but because that is the legally smallest amount they can get away with.
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Sadly this is just the way companies work. Doesn't matter how well off the directors are or how much the company has made, they will always just want more and more money instead of passing some of that on to the workers.

If companies was paying individuals for what they think they are worth, there would be a bigger outcry than what we have with the NLW. Person A completes his jobs in a day, person B does every exactly the same job but completes his work in 1.5 days. Person A receives more money than person B for doing the same job.
 
In all instances so far the minimum wage appears to have had few negative effects because industries have responded accordingly.

However, in this country what they have just announced is that there will be, in effect, a pay freeze for many semi skilled/skilled public sector workers that are on a relatively low wage anyway, and in turn workers with no skills are going to equal their pay.

Be dismissive all you like, but just look to the NHS for an example of what I am talking about. Why are we having to import nurses? Skills shortage. Why? Because pay for the qualifications and experience needed coupled with absysmal working conditions means British people are leaving the industry in their droves. But the NHS is still running isn't it, so you would be forgiven for saying the situation has caused no discernable drawbacks for the industry........
 
[TFU] Thegoon84;28294098 said:
What an absolute arrogrant *****. I dont work in a "run of the mill IT bod" and find that comment totally **** ish
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I'm not sure it was directed at you.

His point is valid, albeit poorly communicated.
 
Haggisman said:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/michael...izing-effect-of-minimum-wage-hikes-1427240817

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...-effects-of-seattles-15-an-hour-minimum-wage/
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so you've got one article which requires a subscription - perhaps you should quote from it and highlight what specifically you want to highlight from it.

the second one is just an opinion piece that mentions the effect on restaurants... doesn't really give an overall view of this being a negative move - tis just a cherry picked argument
 
dowie said:
sorry but individual anecdotes are irrelevant to this really, that isn't necessarily the result of the minimum wage - it is also down to you having a naff employer... and it is an individual case which says nothing about the wider impact
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We have it in writing that the reason some of these teams are under-staffed is due to increases in minimum wage combined with the "prevalent economic weather" likewise bonuses have been reduced (again in writing) to offset increases in minimum wage.

Might be anecdotal but I've worked for quite a few different companies in my time - the thinking is rarely much different in your average UK company - seen the same kind of things happen in response to the bigger ones like 2004/2005, etc. where bonuses were reduced or not paid to offset the change - the real details are much less positive than some of the case studies make out which seem to dwell on the overall effect - no company I've ever worked for has reacted to a minimum wage increase by hiring more people.
 
BuffetSlayer said:
In all instances so far the minimum wage appears to have had few negative effects because industries have responded accordingly.

However, in this country what they have just announced is that there will be, in effect, a pay freeze for many semi skilled/skilled public sector workers that are on a relatively low wage anyway, and in turn workers with no skills are going to equal their pay.

Be dismissive all you like, but just look to the NHS for an example of what I am talking about. Why are we having to import nurses? Skills shortage. Why? Because pay for the qualifications and experience needed coupled with absysmal working conditions means British people are leaving the industry in their droves. But the NHS is still running isn't it, so you would be forgiven for saying the situation has caused no discernable drawbacks for the industry........
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Does the minimum wage even affect nursing in this country with the NHS dominating the industry? If we had a free market in nursing, would nurses be paid minimum wage? Would all these foreign workers push the wage down to minimum wage levels? The state specifies the salary of the nurses. Would wages be even higher if they were not set by the NHS/state. If there is such a shortage of qualified nurses that we are dependent on foreign nurses then the wages should be higher not lower.

The minimum wage will affect business like mcdonalds, where they have 1000s of employees on minimum wage. Robot tellers may look that bit more affordable and viable after a massive cost increase like that. Business are considerate enough to hire humans over workers if their cost is the same or lower. Once machines are equally or greater productive and costs are lower then the business will go with robots. Sure there may be a business out there that could be paying their employees more, the reason they don't is because there is such a high demand for the jobs because they don't require a high skill or qualification.

This biggest impact will be business that can't afford to pay employees the new amount that have low margins. Like restaurants and retail.
 
Rroff said:
We have it in writing that the reason some of these teams are under-staffed is due to increases in minimum wage combined with the "prevalent economic weather" likewise bonuses have been reduced (again in writing) to offset increases in minimum wage.
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that is utterly meaningless, whether in writing or in an announcement or in a rumuor

there is often a 'reason' given for pay friezes or lack of hiring, in reality there are usually numerous factors

Might be anecdotal but I've worked for quite a few different companies in my time - the thinking is rarely much different in your average UK company - seen the same kind of things happen in response to the bigger ones like 2004/2005, etc. where bonuses were reduced or not paid to offset the change - the real details are much less positive than some of the case studies make out which seem to dwell on the overall effect - no company I've ever worked for has reacted to a minimum wage increase by hiring more people.
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you're still looking at anecdotal cases... you've worked for a few companies and you've got some subjective view on the matter - it is still rather irrelevant
 
dowie said:
that is utterly meaningless, whether in writing or in an announcement or in a rumuor

there is often a 'reason' given for pay friezes or lack of hiring, in reality there are usually numerous factors



you're still looking at anecdotal cases... you've worked for a few companies and you've got some subjective view on the matter - it is still rather irrelevant
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Its still relevant - I'm not disputing the net effect - more pay = more people spending money = more jobs but I've worked through what ~14 increases to minimum wage in 6 different companies - I've seen what actually happens at a business level in response to that, which is generally along the same lines, which seems to be largely glossed over in these case studies that are looking at the overall picture.

Most companies will look to balance the extra cost somewhere even if its i.e. getting rid of a vending machine in the staff room they've been subsidising the cost of, etc.
 
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[TFU] Thegoon84;28294098 said:
What an absolute arrogrant *****. I dont work in a "run of the mill IT bod" and find that comment totally **** ish
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Keep your hair on, there is nothing arrogant about it, I deal with IT bods all the time and for some reason they think there something special, personal experience I may add.
 
anything I don't mind said:
Does the minimum wage even affect nursing in this country with the NHS dominating the industry? If we had a free market in nursing, would nurses be paid minimum wage? Would all these foreign workers push the wage down to minimum wage levels? The state specifies the salary of the nurses. Would wages be even higher if they were not set by the NHS/state. If there is such a shortage of qualified nurses that we are dependent on foreign nurses then the wages should be higher not lower.
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My point is an example of how lower wages for semi-skilled workers coupled with poor working conditions mean British workers go elsewhere. Perhaps to work in a supermarket for similar money. Their leaving causes a skills shortage because the pay they received was not commesurate with their qualifications and experience when offset with the duties they had to perform. A qualified nurse earns a fair amount over the current NMW, however healthcare assistants generally earn about £7p/h and they make up a lot of the staff numbers both in hospital wards and for homecare and they usually work for a privately run agency operating under the umbrella of the NHS. Indeed in some hospitals healthcare assistants outnumber nurses and and is allegedly one of the reasons why Stafford was failing so badly.

Yes their wages should be higher, that is the whole point and that is why they can and do go elsewhere for an easier life to earn the same or more money. But the NHS can't afford to pay more because of the increased load upon it and government policies on public sector pay.

When you apply similar circumstances to other public sectors, the same kind of thing is going to happen (and is already happening).

If you are going to introduce a NLW that pays the same for jobs that do not require skills as jobs that do require effort to gain qualifications and skills what is going to happen?

A skills shortage is what is going to happen. In the NHS the pressure on qualified nurses being expected to cope with up to 15 patients at a time is ridiculous. If you then say a person working in McDonalds or a retail shop is on £9p/h their wage isn't actually that much lower than that of a qualified nurse (based on a 40hr week). Given nurses often work in excess of that in order to cope with their workload, it quickly becomes clear there is a problem.

Indeed, we face a situation where healthcare assistants on the NLW in 2020 will be earning more, in real terms, than the registered nurses they work along side!! Which is ludicrous.
 
Rroff said:
Its still relevant - I'm not disputing the net effect - more pay = more people spending money = more jobs but I've worked through what ~14 increases to minimum wage in 6 different companies - I've seen what actually happens at a business level in response to that, which is generally along the same lines, which seems to be largely glossed over in these case studies that are looking at the overall picture.

Most companies will look to balance the extra cost somewhere even if its i.e. getting rid of a vending machine in the staff room they've been subsidising the cost of, etc.
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it really isn't relevant at all

my boss said we're getting pay friezes because the govt did X is not relevant, it is anecdotal

and frankly management stating they've done something because they have to, because of X... even if they actually believe what they've stated, doesn't make it so - the underlying problem could simply be because the company itself isn't as efficient as it should be or anything really

you need to look at the wider picture not cherry picked examples and subjective statements/opinions on the reasons for certain actions
 
dowie said:
if money is important then perhaps don't chose that route and acquire some skills that pay
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Are you saying then that only some jobs deserve enough of a salary for a reasonable quality of life, because that is how it is sounding.

We aren't talking about people who want to be stinking rich for doing nothing here (although there are plenty doing just that, messing things up for everyone.)

All jobs should pay enough to cover a reasonable standard of living without the need for government top ups, otherwise where is the incentive to work?

It's alright trotting out the old cliché " just get more qualifications and become a millionaire just like me" like The Right always seem so keen to do, but in the real world there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of jobs that NEED to be done, if you're saying that the people that do these jobs don't deserve any quality of life then you need a hard look at yourself.
 
Telecaster said:
Are you saying then that only some jobs deserve enough of a salary for a reasonable quality of life, because that is how it is sounding.
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nope, I'm pointing out that people chose jobs for different reasons


All jobs should pay enough to cover a reasonable standard of living without the need for government top ups, otherwise where is the incentive to work?
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which is why raising the minimum wage is a good thing

It's alright trotting out the old cliché " just get more qualifications and become a millionaire just like me" like The Right always seem so keen to do, but in the real world there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of jobs that NEED to be done, if you're saying that the people that do these jobs don't deserve any quality of life then you need a hard look at yourself.
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no one is talking about being a millionaire, I'm not sure where you got that from???
 
BuffetSlayer said:
Not at all, it is a good thing but only if the the knock-on effect is that wages in the jobs above NMW jobs rise in accordance (IE semi-skilled/skilled posts). Otherwise you break the chain and insert an air gap that is difficult to cross.
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But if that happened across the board for all jobs you would still end up with income inequality. The arguments you are making against this are exactly the same as the arguments made by the right against changes to reduce income inequality.
 
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